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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    Cabicular said:
    This is phone footage obviously but I don't think it's obvious there is no Guitar Amp
    onstage?

    4:22 if you want to hear the lead tone and an embarrassing lack of appreciation for my stellar guitar playing :)

    What I love about this clip is that as a Zep geek I can tell you've listened to loads of Zep live stuff. 

    Don't need to be sold on modeller tones as I've gigged a modeller into a PA right back since the POD2 :)
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  • Cabicular said:
    This is phone footage obviously but I don't think it's obvious there is no Guitar Amp
    onstage?

    4:22 if you want to hear the lead tone and an embarrassing lack of appreciation for my stellar guitar playing :)

    What I love about this clip is that as a Zep geek I can tell you've listened to loads of Zep live stuff. 

    Don't need to be sold on modeller tones as I've gigged a modeller into a PA right back since the POD2 :)

    I remember going to a Rise to Remain gig (anyone remember them?) and one of the support acts (who do complex twisty time sig changes, had a song called "huge hammers"?) and I'm pretty certain one band member was using pod farm on a laptop, a pod studio and presumably the PA. 

    Sounded pretty decent. Small venue, but lots of bare, hard walls and floors and not great general sound but it was listenable.

    We are very lucky, these days. I remember the original bean coming out and total guitar said something like, "like it or not, the guitar world has changed forever" where guitarist magazine just ripped on it for being shit. 
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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    dindude said:
    You digital lot are more defensive (and closed minded) that us analog purists at times!
    Not really it's just we presented with 'facts' that simply aren't true from every perspective
    Frim my perspective I have a Matchless DC30, King Kobra, Dr Z jaz 20, Maz38, Carmen Ghia, Buddha SuperDrive, Fender Twin, 3 Blackstar Artisans, A Friedman BE100, a Friedman PT20, a Mesa MKIV, 65 Amps London to name but a few.
    I also have a massive collection of pedals
    Im not saying this to show off but to give you a bit of context to my opinion.
    When I say the Helix is as good as a valve amp live it comes from 30 years of gigging and owning a lot of decent valve amps
    Someone else says
    Modellers are not as good as valve amps .. fact.
    I have to disagree
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  • Wis'd @Cabicular ;
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Clarky said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Sporky said:
    dindude said:

    What I can't quite square in my logical mind, is that a modeller IS modelling (I.e. Simulating) a valve amp (most of the time). So declaring that it's better (sounding that is, not flexibility wise) seems a little perverse to me.
    Well, the theory (and opinions vary, of course) is that a modeller ought to sound just like the thing it's modelling, only it can do it at different volume levels, and it most likely doesn't reproduce all the hissing or the microphony in the valves.

    It's also possible for a model to sound better if it cops the character but removes (for example) that weird thing that particular amp does if you have the presence control higher than the treble, because the circuit needs another wotsit to stop the instability. Obviously making something up there. ;)
    The thing is, there is a bit of a disconnect. Take a 100watt Marshall beasty and turn it up to bedroom level... probably sounds thin and weedy... so you crank the fuck outta it to get it to sound good, and it sounds massive and Satanic.

    Now the model is designed to replicate the massive and Satanic, but at a lower volume level... which isn't physically possible. I think that has a lot to do with our perception of modellers - they sound full and demonic, but at a comfortable volume level and our brain isn't expecting to hear that.

    And when you turn the modeller up to the same level as you did the amp... the amp model already sounds big and beastly... but then fletcher munson becomes your enemy and the extreme lows and extreme highs become much more pronounced and it all starts to sound a bit gash.

    Maybe.
    But you can compare a recording of a loud valve amp with a modeller at the same listening volume.

    This thread is full of people talking about different scenarios BTW, making it quite confusing. There are people talking about recording, gigging through a PA, gigging through a power amp and guitar cab etc
    of all of us in this lil' chat…
    I reckon Drew is likely one of the more qualified from an "deep experience with both rig types" standpoint..
    certainly more so than me...
    Y'know that day we had in the studio, I still think about it. And not just coz of @Handsome_Chris and his technicolour schlong. The tones you were getting from your Axe FX plus one of those Matrix amps and the Marshall 8080 and two bog standard 1960 cabs... it was just monstrous. It sold me on the Axe completely.

    When I got mine though, I couldn't get that feeling or tone, and at band practice I'd get harsh feedback and very unmusical distortion. I couldn't ever really solve it, and I couldn't get loud enough to be heard in the band. So I gave up trying to use it in a band context and stuck with it just for home use, at which point I started getting pissed off that my real Diezel at the time sounded so much better and I could use it for both home and practice. So I flogged the Axe FX.

    I tried a Kemper Powerhead too, not at practice but at home... and didn't like the tones. To be honest with that one, I went all in and bought the full bundle, so ended up spending a pretty penny. I regretted it, and so didn't stick with it for long enough.

    But it gets me thinking - are certain speakers or cabs better than others for bringing modellers up to a loud rehearsal and gig level? Like @Digital_Igloo says, the playback system is what we're most often responding to in terms of feel. Maybe my cab works great for valve amps, but sucks for modellers?

    I dunno. Just thinking aloud. If an Axe FX owner and a Kemper powerhead owner wanted to head into the studio one day with me, I could bring my Helix and we could spend the day chatting shit and comparing each setup. Might be fun.
    I thought more about what happened after that day too..
    exactly that same as you really… like why it never worked for you in the end..
    confused me quite a bit at the time..
    there may be something in what you're saying though about my cabs..
    they're certainly nothing special.. but they do seem to 'join in' and add their bit to the tone in a good way…
    to be honest, I remember trying a VH4 through 1960's and I preferred them to the Diezel cabs.. they had more punch..
    those Herbert ch3 and 5153Blue tones you were calling up were wonderful..
    and those Herbert ch2 and 5153 Green cleans were breath taking
    I actually tried those with the DC Band presets.. as lovely as they were, they turned out to be a little heavy handed for that particular band, so I ended up using the Tucana3 clean.. it just seems to work better in context with the needs of that particular band...

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261

    Drew_TNBD said: I dunno. Just thinking aloud. If an Axe FX owner and a Kemper powerhead owner wanted to head into the studio one day with me, I could bring my Helix and we could spend the day chatting shit and comparing each setup. Might be fun.
    absolutely… we must do this again some time..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261

    Drew_TNBD said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Sporky said:
    dindude said:

    What I can't quite square in my logical mind, is that a modeller IS modelling (I.e. Simulating) a valve amp (most of the time). So declaring that it's better (sounding that is, not flexibility wise) seems a little perverse to me.
    Well, the theory (and opinions vary, of course) is that a modeller ought to sound just like the thing it's modelling, only it can do it at different volume levels, and it most likely doesn't reproduce all the hissing or the microphony in the valves.

    It's also possible for a model to sound better if it cops the character but removes (for example) that weird thing that particular amp does if you have the presence control higher than the treble, because the circuit needs another wotsit to stop the instability. Obviously making something up there. ;)
    The thing is, there is a bit of a disconnect. Take a 100watt Marshall beasty and turn it up to bedroom level... probably sounds thin and weedy... so you crank the fuck outta it to get it to sound good, and it sounds massive and Satanic.

    Now the model is designed to replicate the massive and Satanic, but at a lower volume level... which isn't physically possible. I think that has a lot to do with our perception of modellers - they sound full and demonic, but at a comfortable volume level and our brain isn't expecting to hear that.

    And when you turn the modeller up to the same level as you did the amp... the amp model already sounds big and beastly... but then fletcher munson becomes your enemy and the extreme lows and extreme highs become much more pronounced and it all starts to sound a bit gash.

    Maybe.
    But you can compare a recording of a loud valve amp with a modeller at the same listening volume.
    Yeah agreed. Which is where I find it difficult to spot the differences, which kinda builds into my theory. I think the differences are only really apparent at volume, and with real time playback. As soon as it's recorded, your brain switches into a different mode and you start to lose objectivity and perception very quickly.
    maybe it's because when you're just listening to a recording through studio monitors, you're not getting that feeling from the guitar cabs.. that's a whole different thing…

    cathedral organs are the same too… they sound great on a CD..
    stand next to a real one [especially a really big one] and it's a whole different experience
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
    edited April 2017
    welshboyo said:
    NelsonP said:
    A good valve amp is still better than a modeller. No doubt about it. It's really not cork sniffery or not being open minded.

    Valve amps just 'feel' better than a modeller when playing them. Feel being a combination of things (tone, responsiveness, mental difference of seeing / feeling a big amp etc).

    Having said that, a high end modeller does a pretty damn good impression, is ultimately much cheaper and is so much more convenient for everyday use - you can use headphones, portable, contains all the effects you need, much easier for recording etc.

    I am open minded, love modelling and what it brings. But a good valve amp is still king in terms of ultimate tone / feel.





    So how have you come to this conclusion? Have you compared both side by side and what modelling did you use?
    Yes. I did it yesterday. 

    Mesa .50 caliber into a celestion loaded marshall 1960 compared to running an atomic amplifire into the effects return with no cab sim and using a variety of different 'preamps'.

    The mesa preamp really was just better. The most tangible difference was feel. The same way that a £2k guitar just plays better than a £200 one. Hard to describe lucidly but definitely there. 

    I do not believe it is just confirmation bias.
    I still think my amplifire is a brilliant piece of kit and use it much more than my amp. But if you are measuring it solely on tone and feel then it isn't as good.

    Agree with all other comments related to practicality etc. Modellers are miles ahead.

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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    NelsonP said:
    welshboyo said:
    NelsonP said:
    A good valve amp is still better than a modeller. No doubt about it. It's really not cork sniffery or not being open minded.

    Valve amps just 'feel' better than a modeller when playing them. Feel being a combination of things (tone, responsiveness, mental difference of seeing / feeling a big amp etc).

    Having said that, a high end modeller does a pretty damn good impression, is ultimately much cheaper and is so much more convenient for everyday use - you can use headphones, portable, contains all the effects you need, much easier for recording etc.

    I am open minded, love modelling and what it brings. But a good valve amp is still king in terms of ultimate tone / feel.





    So how have you come to this conclusion? Have you compared both side by side and what modelling did you use?
    Yes. I did it yesterday. 

    Mesa .50 caliber into a celestion loaded marshall 1960 compared to running an atomic amplifire into the effects return with no cab sim and using a variety of different 'preamps'.

    The mesa preamp really was just better. The most tangible difference was feel. The same way that a £2k guitar just plays better than a £200 one. Hard to describe lucidly but definitely there. 

    I do not believe it is just confirmation bias.
    I still think my amplifire is a brilliant piece of kit and use it much more than my amp. But if you are measuring it solely on tone and feel then it isn't as good.

    Agree with all other comments related to practicality etc. Modellers are miles ahead.

    It's not a representative test. All that tells you is the modelling of the Aromic doesn't sound particularly good paired with the poweramp and speaker of your Mesa. And by that alone you have declared tube amps to be better than modellers ..?
    Ive had an Atomic and they are ok but not into the FX return of a valve amp. They sound much better into FRFR although having said that I still didn't particularly get on with mine. I couldn't gig it.
    try a well set Kemper or axe8 or a helix into an FRFR rig and you might feel differently

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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 3466
    edited April 2017
    NelsonP said:
    Yes. I did it yesterday. 

    Mesa .50 caliber into a celestion loaded marshall 1960 compared to running an atomic amplifire into the effects return with no cab sim and using a variety of different 'preamps'.

    The mesa preamp really was just better. The most tangible difference was feel.

    You wouldn't plug a valve amp into an FRFR. In the same way, you're not getting the most out of your modeller by plugging it into the FX return! 

    Of course your preamp won, it's no contest.

    Theres a pattern emerging here. Those who have gone all in - 100% are feeling good about their tone, some who try to shoehorn a modeller into an analog rig aren't getting so much luck. It's all about how it's set up and the gear you use to do that...and it couldn't be simpler for me...Axe FX into 2 Yamaha DXR10s, done.
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • dindudedindude Frets: 8534
    Cabicular said:
    dindude said:
    You digital lot are more defensive (and closed minded) that us analog purists at times!
    Not really it's just we presented with 'facts' that simply aren't true from every perspective
    Frim my perspective I have a Matchless DC30, King Kobra, Dr Z jaz 20, Maz38, Carmen Ghia, Buddha SuperDrive, Fender Twin, 3 Blackstar Artisans, A Friedman BE100, a Friedman PT20, a Mesa MKIV, 65 Amps London to name but a few.
    I also have a massive collection of pedals
    Im not saying this to show off but to give you a bit of context to my opinion.
    When I say the Helix is as good as a valve amp live it comes from 30 years of gigging and owning a lot of decent valve amps
    Someone else says
    Modellers are not as good as valve amps .. fact.
    I have to disagree
    How much is bias on your part though because set-up / break down is so much easier, getting loads of sounds is a reality, can go through a PA simply etc etc. I absolutely get the convienience and practicality of it, and that the march of tech means that the compromises are far less, it's the same reason I use Spotify and accept the small but real difference in sound quality to lossless files I moved from. Because I listen to music more so it's "better" for me.

    What I'm talking about is that everything else being equal on a like for like single sound (say your BE100), dicking around somewhere you can turn it up loud, you'd take the Helix over the BE100 for tone and tone alone?

    I'm genuinely interested.
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  • dindude said:

    What I'm talking about is that everything else being equal on a like for like single sound (say your BE100), dicking around somewhere you can turn it up loud, you'd take the Helix over the BE100 for tone and tone alone?

    I'm genuinely interested.
    I would, I have to say. There's stuff in the Axe FX which allows fine tuning to a greater degree than a regular amp. Take a Mesa Dual Rectifier or a JCM800 for example, these are my go to sounds. There are buttons on the Axe FX that allow for more saturation - like an instant hot-rod (IMO, anyway) and there's a 'cut' control that immediately handles the bass response and makes things easier to control.  Then there's cabinet controls and EQ'ing which just make finding 'my' tone so much easier than if I had a 'real' amp.

    I don't exaggerate when I say that this truly is the best I've ever sounded and not unlike @Cabicular, I've been a valve man for nearly 20 years and had a few valve amps (not as many, granted).

    Just re-read your post, perhaps you'll not consider the above as "equal" but that's the point, they're not equal.
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    edited April 2017
    Well I'm not unlike Carbicular in that I've owned a lot of amps, although not quite so many :)  Since I got the Helix ive sold a JCM800, a Marshall 6100, a Dr Z Maz and a Bogner Shiva as I really did prefer the sounds I was getting out of the Helix both for gigging, and dicking around at home or in the rehearsal room, I didn't even use a real amp at all for 6 months after I settled with the Helix
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  • I wouldn't be so down on using Helix preamps or even full amps (which I prefer) in your effects loop. Just make sure it's a reasonable match. Perhaps a Dual Rec won't sound so great through a Blues Deville.

    Having the option of turning a single channel amp into a two or three channel amp is great and as long as you are realistic with which models you choose you will get great results 
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  • I wouldn't be so down on using Helix preamps or even full amps (which I prefer) in your effects loop. Just make sure it's a reasonable match. Perhaps a Dual Rec won't sound so great through a Blues Deville.

    Having the option of turning a single channel amp into a two or three channel amp is great and as long as you are realistic with which models you choose you will get great results 
    Absolutely agree - great solution, indeed. I guess my point was that it shouldn't be compared to real amps when connected like that, it's an unfair comparison.
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • I wouldn't be so down on using Helix preamps or even full amps (which I prefer) in your effects loop. Just make sure it's a reasonable match. Perhaps a Dual Rec won't sound so great through a Blues Deville.

    Having the option of turning a single channel amp into a two or three channel amp is great and as long as you are realistic with which models you choose you will get great results 
    Absolutely agree - great solution, indeed. I guess my point was that it shouldn't be compared to real amps when connected like that, it's an unfair comparison.
    I would absolutely compare it to real amps when connected like that. If there was any noticeable difference, a "now we are on the modelling Preamp" moments then I wouldn't do it
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    Like most things, you could argue the modelling vs amp thing forever and there will never be a consensus. But that's ok, there doesn't need to be one, none of this is fact, it's all just opinion based on personal experience. If it works for you, then that's the right answer. Things like tone, feel, touch, responsiveness etc are all so personal - I can get what I need from Helix. Maybe others can't (for whatever reason) but that doesn't make the use of either more valid. The days when modelling = inferior have passed.

    I thought Guthrie Govan's observation was interesting, in that he still preferred valves, just because they were valves and he was used to valves and had an emotional connection with valves. Therefore a valve amp made him play better, in his head. With any gear, being comfortable and forgetting the gear is important. How you achieve that, less so.
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    NelsonP said:
    Yes. I did it yesterday. 

    Mesa .50 caliber into a celestion loaded marshall 1960 compared to running an atomic amplifire into the effects return with no cab sim and using a variety of different 'preamps'.

    The mesa preamp really was just better. The most tangible difference was feel.

    You wouldn't plug a valve amp into an FRFR. In the same way, you're not getting the most out of your modeller by plugging it into the FX return! 

    Of course your preamp won, it's no contest.

    Theres a pattern emerging here. Those who have gone all in - 100% are feeling good about their tone, some who try to shoehorn a modeller into an analog rig aren't getting so much luck. It's all about how it's set up and the gear you use to do that...and it couldn't be simpler for me...Axe FX into 2 Yamaha DXR10s, done.
    So you are saying, that you get better results using a piece of gear the way it was originally designed to be used?!?!

    what madness is this?!!

    I reserve my right to shoehorn any and all new tech into my rig in the manner I see fit.

    Now excuse me I'm going to watch Avatar (enhanced HD directors cut)BluRay on my 12" B&W 1970's telly. 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • dindudedindude Frets: 8534
    Like most things, you could argue the modelling vs amp thing forever and there will never be a consensus. But that's ok, there doesn't need to be one, none of this is fact, it's all just opinion based on personal experience. If it works for you, then that's the right answer. Things like tone, feel, touch, responsiveness etc are all so personal - I can get what I need from Helix. Maybe others can't (for whatever reason) but that doesn't make the use of either more valid. The days when modelling = inferior have passed.

    I thought Guthrie Govan's observation was interesting, in that he still preferred valves, just because they were valves and he was used to valves and had an emotional connection with valves. Therefore a valve amp made him play better, in his head. With any gear, being comfortable and forgetting the gear is important. How you achieve that, less so.
    Yup, that sums it up nicely I think. Absolutely it appears not to be anything like the poor relation it once was, it's an option that stands side by side with the traditional approach. 
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