Effects used live vs effects when recording/practising at home

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BintyTwanger77BintyTwanger77 Frets: 2208
edited April 2017 in FX
Yet another probably daft question, mainly for those who play live & record, and particularly for those who are musically more inclined to ambient post-rock and the like.

Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording (or practising at home)?   
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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9444
    Yes.

    Overdrives especially. Live, an amp can breath and chime. 

    One of my best live sounds was a Redplate/Supersonic with the humbler MP Sweet Honey as the only pedal !
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  • BintyTwanger77BintyTwanger77 Frets: 2208
    edited April 2017
    Yes.

    Overdrives especially. Live, an amp can breath and chime. 

    One of my best live sounds was a Redplate/Supersonic with the humbler MP Sweet Honey as the only pedal !
    Interesting. I did suspect the most I would need would be a boost for solos. It's even more so for reverb. What were huge lovely cavernous reverbs with a delay underneath at home in the bedroom turned into relative mush in rehearsal, and I could get a huge tone with the compressor, and a single delay with a touch of reverb behind it. Been listening to Interpol and Mogwai again recently and they get huge sounds with just a couple of DD5s!
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 4158
    One big factor people tend to forget, playing live means generally a higher sound level and your ears will naturally start to compress and filter frequencies allied to the natural ambience of the room this could make reverb and delay sound even muddier
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    Generally effects set up at home level are overkill for live use, so it's always a good idea to set up your sound at the volume you are going to be using it at. 
    I tend to use a small amount of delay and no verb on the amp but verb and delay added at the desk. as the guy running the desk can tap tempo it to the drummer
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    I use a lot of fx live.. but not OD and drive. All my fx are there to do something and I think quite hard about what goes where. It's easy for them to be too subtle or too dominant.
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  • UnclePsychosisUnclePsychosis Frets: 12879
    Things like subtle Reverb are a waste of time with a live band in my experience. I also tend to think that you need fewer flavours of effects - low gain overdrives all sound the same once the drummer gets going, for instance (I tend to think they all sound the same anyway but that's a different story). 
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited April 2017
    Yet another probably daft question, mainly for those who play live & record, and particularly for those who are musically more inclined to ambient post-rock and the like.

    Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording (or practising at home)?   
    As a generalisation, yes - reverb & delay often need to be dialled back a bit because you have more natural ambience live and so need less.  But often you have to dial back on modulations and distortions too.  Having said that, overly 'subtle' effects that sound fine in your bedroom will often get lost in a band mix where you have bass, drums, 2nd guitar, keys etc and may need boosting up. So setting your effects for live use can't really be sussed out at home - it needs to be done live in a band mix at rehearsal/gigging volumes, and even then you may need to tweak at different venues because the acoustics will change.  

    One of the most common criticisms of MFX/modelling amp manufacturers is that the factory pre-sets in their units are over-processed.  This is because they want to demonstrate the units capabilities and effects, & they know most customers are probably going to play the unit at lower volumes in a store and/or at home or even through headphones so the patches are often over-processed to make sure they can hear the effects.  

    But when playing live, you often need to wind down everything or it can just become a muddy over-processed mess.  Its really all about just getting a sensible balance and appreciating that effect/amp/MFX etc settings need to be quite different for live gigging in a band mix at volume.  

    Distortions will also sometimes need some adjustment for live gigging - that great saturated distortion with scooped mids you love at home might get completely lost in a band mix.  And even the basic amp/MFX EQ needs to be set a little differently.  That's because at volume our ears are more sensitive to hearing the mid frequencies and so upping the mids is often needed to help your overall sound punch through the mix.  For this reason, with a conventional amp & pedal-board set-up and even with MFX units that have no built in EQ effect, adding a simple external 7-band EQ can make a world of difference to your live tone and can give you way more control than just the built in EQ on your amp.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for gigging players especially, an EQ pedal is arguably the single most important weapon in your effects armoury on your pedal-board!  

    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    Voxman said:
    Yet another probably daft question, mainly for those who play live & record, and particularly for those who are musically more inclined to ambient post-rock and the like.

    Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording (or practising at home)?   
    As a generalisation, yes - reverb & delay often need to be dialled back a bit because you have more natural ambience live and so need less.  But often you have to dial back on modulations and distortions too.  Having said that, overly 'subtle' effects that sound fine in your bedroom will often get lost in a band mix where you have bass, drums, 2nd guitar, keys etc and may need boosting up. So setting your effects for live use can't really be sussed out at home - it needs to be done live in a band mix at rehearsal/gigging volumes, and even then you may need to tweak at different venues because the acoustics will change.  

    One of the most common criticisms of MFX/modelling amp manufacturers is that the factory pre-sets in their units are over-processed.  This is because they want to demonstrate the units capabilities and effects, & they know most customers are probably going to play the unit at lower volumes in a store and/or at home or even through headphones so the patches are often over-processed to make sure they can hear the effects.  

    But when playing live, you often need to wind down everything or it can just become a muddy over-processed mess.  Its really all about just getting a sensible balance and appreciating that effect/amp/MFX etc settings need to be quite different for live gigging in a band mix at volume.  

    Distortions will also sometimes need some adjustment for live gigging - that great saturated distortion with scooped mids you love at home might get completely lost in a band mix.  And even the basic amp/MFX EQ needs to be set a little differently.  That's because at volume our ears are more sensitive to hearing the mid frequencies and so upping the mids is often needed to help your overall sound punch through the mix.  For this reason, with a conventional amp & pedal-board set-up and even with MFX units that have no built in EQ effect, adding a simple external 7-band EQ can make a world of difference to your live tone and can give you way more control than just the built in EQ on your amp.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for gigging players especially, an EQ pedal is arguably the single most important weapon in your effects armoury on your pedal-board!  

    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    Absolutely nailed it. 
    Wis'd. 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • Voxman said:
    Yet another probably daft question, mainly for those who play live & record, and particularly for those who are musically more inclined to ambient post-rock and the like.

    Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording (or practising at home)?   
    As a generalisation, yes - reverb & delay often need to be dialled back a bit because you have more natural ambience live and so need less.  But often you have to dial back on modulations and distortions too.  Having said that, overly 'subtle' effects that sound fine in your bedroom will often get lost in a band mix where you have bass, drums, 2nd guitar, keys etc and may need boosting up. So setting your effects for live use can't really be sussed out at home - it needs to be done live in a band mix at rehearsal/gigging volumes, and even then you may need to tweak at different venues because the acoustics will change.  

    One of the most common criticisms of MFX/modelling amp manufacturers is that the factory pre-sets in their units are over-processed.  This is because they want to demonstrate the units capabilities and effects, & they know most customers are probably going to play the unit at lower volumes in a store and/or at home or even through headphones so the patches are often over-processed to make sure they can hear the effects.  

    But when playing live, you often need to wind down everything or it can just become a muddy over-processed mess.  Its really all about just getting a sensible balance and appreciating that effect/amp/MFX etc settings need to be quite different for live gigging in a band mix at volume.  

    Distortions will also sometimes need some adjustment for live gigging - that great saturated distortion with scooped mids you love at home might get completely lost in a band mix.  And even the basic amp/MFX EQ needs to be set a little differently.  That's because at volume our ears are more sensitive to hearing the mid frequencies and so upping the mids is often needed to help your overall sound punch through the mix.  For this reason, with a conventional amp & pedal-board set-up and even with MFX units that have no built in EQ effect, adding a simple external 7-band EQ can make a world of difference to your live tone and can give you way more control than just the built in EQ on your amp.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for gigging players especially, an EQ pedal is arguably the single most important weapon in your effects armoury on your pedal-board!  

    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    Absolutely nailed it. 
    Wis'd. 
    Same here. Incredibly helpful @Voxman thank you.
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  • Voxman said:
    Yet another probably daft question, mainly for those who play live & record, and particularly for those who are musically more inclined to ambient post-rock and the like.

    Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording (or practising at home)?   
    As a generalisation, yes - reverb & delay often need to be dialled back a bit because you have more natural ambience live and so need less.  But often you have to dial back on modulations and distortions too.  Having said that, overly 'subtle' effects that sound fine in your bedroom will often get lost in a band mix where you have bass, drums, 2nd guitar, keys etc and may need boosting up. So setting your effects for live use can't really be sussed out at home - it needs to be done live in a band mix at rehearsal/gigging volumes, and even then you may need to tweak at different venues because the acoustics will change.  

    One of the most common criticisms of MFX/modelling amp manufacturers is that the factory pre-sets in their units are over-processed.  This is because they want to demonstrate the units capabilities and effects, & they know most customers are probably going to play the unit at lower volumes in a store and/or at home or even through headphones so the patches are often over-processed to make sure they can hear the effects.  

    But when playing live, you often need to wind down everything or it can just become a muddy over-processed mess.  Its really all about just getting a sensible balance and appreciating that effect/amp/MFX etc settings need to be quite different for live gigging in a band mix at volume.  

    Distortions will also sometimes need some adjustment for live gigging - that great saturated distortion with scooped mids you love at home might get completely lost in a band mix.  And even the basic amp/MFX EQ needs to be set a little differently.  That's because at volume our ears are more sensitive to hearing the mid frequencies and so upping the mids is often needed to help your overall sound punch through the mix.  For this reason, with a conventional amp & pedal-board set-up and even with MFX units that have no built in EQ effect, adding a simple external 7-band EQ can make a world of difference to your live tone and can give you way more control than just the built in EQ on your amp.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for gigging players especially, an EQ pedal is arguably the single most important weapon in your effects armoury on your pedal-board!  

    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    Absolutely nailed it. 
    Wis'd. 
    Agreed again... only thing I'd add to the distortions is that although a eq pedal is the real Swiss Army knife pedal for this a boss sd1 cones into its own live to put in front of any distortions that you need to thicken and get heard in the mix. 
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  • timmysofttimmysoft Frets: 1962
    Voxman said:
    Yet another probably daft question, mainly for those who play live & record, and particularly for those who are musically more inclined to ambient post-rock and the like.

    Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording (or practising at home)?   
    As a generalisation, yes - reverb & delay often need to be dialled back a bit because you have more natural ambience live and so need less.  But often you have to dial back on modulations and distortions too.  Having said that, overly 'subtle' effects that sound fine in your bedroom will often get lost in a band mix where you have bass, drums, 2nd guitar, keys etc and may need boosting up. So setting your effects for live use can't really be sussed out at home - it needs to be done live in a band mix at rehearsal/gigging volumes, and even then you may need to tweak at different venues because the acoustics will change.  

    One of the most common criticisms of MFX/modelling amp manufacturers is that the factory pre-sets in their units are over-processed.  This is because they want to demonstrate the units capabilities and effects, & they know most customers are probably going to play the unit at lower volumes in a store and/or at home or even through headphones so the patches are often over-processed to make sure they can hear the effects.  

    But when playing live, you often need to wind down everything or it can just become a muddy over-processed mess.  Its really all about just getting a sensible balance and appreciating that effect/amp/MFX etc settings need to be quite different for live gigging in a band mix at volume.  

    Distortions will also sometimes need some adjustment for live gigging - that great saturated distortion with scooped mids you love at home might get completely lost in a band mix.  And even the basic amp/MFX EQ needs to be set a little differently.  That's because at volume our ears are more sensitive to hearing the mid frequencies and so upping the mids is often needed to help your overall sound punch through the mix.  For this reason, with a conventional amp & pedal-board set-up and even with MFX units that have no built in EQ effect, adding a simple external 7-band EQ can make a world of difference to your live tone and can give you way more control than just the built in EQ on your amp.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for gigging players especially, an EQ pedal is arguably the single most important weapon in your effects armoury on your pedal-board!  

    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    I don't agree with the amp off the floor thing, I prefer to have my amp connected to the surface I'm on so I can feel the vibrations. I hate any amp projecting at the back of my body/head, to me it just feels odd and then I can only hear my amp, I want to be able to hear the whole band.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    I like my amp on the floor as well but mainly because I don't want to hear it beaming straight into my ears. Some people like it up though, different strokes and all that 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    edited April 2017

    Do you find you use less effects when you play live than you would when you are recording..?   
    It is so much better when you hold back with FX live.  You just play and it's lovely and fun and you're not f*ck arsing about with FX.
    The turning point for me was getting a much simpler amp and ditching the FX loop.  (There's nothing wrong with FX loops but this is what started my "rein it in" thinking.)

    Biggest discovery for me was getting the amp to do the basic sound I wanted, like a just-about-cruncy amount of gain, and then having OD set to unity-plus-a-smidgeon-extra (rather than "11").  Massive, massive difference:  set OD just above unity on an already good base sound.
    It's a whole new world.  Back the guitar volume off of a bit and it is clean; open it up and add OD and I'm hearing what I wanted all along.  I know this was discovered about 100 years ago but for me it has only been in the last year that I've switched from using pedals to amp for getting the base sound as above.

    The only FX that's mostly on the go is echo.  And it's way more subtle than ever before. 
    I'll use spot FX but literally just that:  in and out for a couple of bars. 
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Does not compute.

    FX 4EVA!!
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Case in point:


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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    timmysoft said:
    Voxman said:
    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    I don't agree with the amp off the floor thing, I prefer to have my amp connected to the surface I'm on so I can feel the vibrations. I hate any amp projecting at the back of my body/head, to me it just feels odd and then I can only hear my amp, I want to be able to hear the whole band.
    Danny1969 said:
    I like my amp on the floor as well but mainly because I don't want to hear it beaming straight into my ears. Some people like it up though, different strokes and all that 
    I hear you guys, but just to clarify I was coming purely from the perspective of the audience. If you're miked up it doesn't matter of course, and a lot of folk (me included) like to have the amp aimed at me/the band where the direct amp sound is being utilised as a monitor, at a sensible volume of course.

    But if you're using the amp as pure backline ie what you and the audience hear is solely from your amp, then what you hear depends whether you're standing in front of, to the side, or behind your amp.  Most players will tend to stand in front of their amp or to the side, but there are many (as was done in the 'old days' eg Beatles, Shadows etc) who prefer standing behind the amp (that's the reason classic amps like the Vox AC30 have the control labels 'reversed', so you can read them from behind the amp). 

    Each 'position' has pros & cons.  If you stand in front of the amp, and you're playing at volume, it's potentially damaging to your ears and you're best advised to wear ear-plugs to protect them. If you're too close to your amp you might not easily hear what the rest of your band are doing.  So, from your perspective, you might well prefer to keep your amp on the floor and get a better stage balance.  The problem is that it may not be best for your audience who are further away from the amp than you are and whilst you might think you're getting a great sound and are plenty loud, you could be getting lost to the audience further back.  

    If you stand to the side of or behind your amp, having the amp raised is better for both your audience and for you because your ears are not being subjected to as much direct volume.  The downside is that you won't seem as loud and you may have trouble hearing yourself in the band mix - this can be particularly problematical if your amp is closed-back with less 'surround' volume behind and at the sides of the amp.

    So, backline with no other monitoring is manageable at lower volumes with a quieter drummer but it can be harder to manage at volume in a full mix.  

    Around 3 years back I got caught out at an open-air gig.  I was told the amps would be miked up so I just took my Marshall DSL401 1x12" with my Cub 12R as a backup but with no extension cab.  When we got there, there was a problem with the PA and it couldn't take the 'load' of both mikes and amps.  So I had to go pure backline which was entirely unintended but from experience I knew how best to set the amp up so it would be a good sound for both the audience and me & the band. On the floor it was fine for me and the band but it was getting lost out to the audience, so I raised the amp off the floor but positioned it back & well to the side of me. This had the added advantage that the better, clearer sound projection meant I could actually turn down the amp a bit.  I was using a conventional simple pedal-board with an EQ.  

    Had I been able to go miked-up, the sound would have been much fuller but in the circumstances and considering this was a little 40w 1x12" amp, I think it projected pretty well.  Here's a couple of clips from that very gig - and on Mustang Sally (bit of a fun free for all where other singers & a sax player joined us) you'll hear the vocals cut out and the sound guy doing his best to keep everything going!! 

    (Mustang Sally) 

    (Bad Company, Rock steady)




    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • timmysofttimmysoft Frets: 1962
    Voxman said:
    timmysoft said:
    Voxman said:
    And if you are using a regular combo guitar amp that isn't miked up through the PA, the other piece of advice I'd offer is - get it off the floor.  By which I mean get your amp off the ground by at least 12 inches and/or angle it so that your sound projects better out to the audience.  This is because depending on what the floor is made of or has covering it (eg carpet, rugs etc), some of your tone and volume could be getting absorbed and lost.   
    I don't agree with the amp off the floor thing, I prefer to have my amp connected to the surface I'm on so I can feel the vibrations. I hate any amp projecting at the back of my body/head, to me it just feels odd and then I can only hear my amp, I want to be able to hear the whole band.
    Danny1969 said:
    I like my amp on the floor as well but mainly because I don't want to hear it beaming straight into my ears. Some people like it up though, different strokes and all that 
    I hear you guys, but just to clarify I was coming purely from the perspective of the audience. If you're miked up it doesn't matter of course, and a lot of folk (me included) like to have the amp aimed at me/the band where the direct amp sound is being utilised as a monitor, at a sensible volume of course.

    But if you're using the amp as pure backline ie what you and the audience hear is solely from your amp, then what you hear depends whether you're standing in front of, to the side, or behind your amp.  Most players will tend to stand in front of their amp or to the side, but there are many (as was done in the 'old days' eg Beatles, Shadows etc) who prefer standing behind the amp (that's the reason classic amps like the Vox AC30 have the control labels 'reversed', so you can read them from behind the amp). 

    Each 'position' has pros & cons.  If you stand in front of the amp, and you're playing at volume, it's potentially damaging to your ears and you're best advised to wear ear-plugs to protect them. If you're too close to your amp you might not easily hear what the rest of your band are doing.  So, from your perspective, you might well prefer to keep your amp on the floor and get a better stage balance.  The problem is that it may not be best for your audience who are further away from the amp than you are and whilst you might think you're getting a great sound and are plenty loud, you could be getting lost to the audience further back.  

    If you stand to the side of or behind your amp, having the amp raised is better for both your audience and for you because your ears are not being subjected to as much direct volume.  The downside is that you won't seem as loud and you may have trouble hearing yourself in the band mix - this can be particularly problematical if your amp is closed-back with less 'surround' volume behind and at the sides of the amp.

    So, backline with no other monitoring is manageable at lower volumes with a quieter drummer but it can be harder to manage at volume in a full mix.  

    Around 3 years back I got caught out at an open-air gig.  I was told the amps would be miked up so I just took my Marshall DSL401 1x12" with my Cub 12R as a backup but with no extension cab.  When we got there, there was a problem with the PA and it couldn't take the 'load' of both mikes and amps.  So I had to go pure backline which was entirely unintended but from experience I knew how best to set the amp up so it would be a good sound for both the audience and me & the band. On the floor it was fine for me and the band but it was getting lost out to the audience, so I raised the amp off the floor but positioned it back & well to the side of me. This had the added advantage that the better, clearer sound projection meant I could actually turn down the amp a bit.  I was using a conventional simple pedal-board with an EQ.  

    Had I been able to go miked-up, the sound would have been much fuller but in the circumstances and considering this was a little 40w 1x12" amp, I think it projected pretty well.  Here's a couple of clips from that very gig - and on Mustang Sally (bit of a fun free for all where other singers & a sax player joined us) you'll hear the vocals cut out and the sound guy doing his best to keep everything going!! 

    (Mustang Sally) 

    (Bad Company, Rock steady)




    Looks like a fun gig mate!

    I never really care about the audience, i only play a gig for a change of location. Audiences are uneducated shit heads, who think that salads, chinos and Levi Roots are good ideas.
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    @timmysoft said:

    I never really care about the audience, i only play a gig for a change of location. 
    D - You're in good company!  Chuck Berry only cared about how he sounded to him & he didn't give a fig about what the audience heard!  
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • EskiEski Frets: 35
    Am I a philistine (and you can be honest - I have broad shoulders)?  I have a relatively simple set up - play through a clean amp channel using a (pretty much) always on OD to get the dirt I want/need.  For solos I boost it through a fuzz pedal and occasionally use wah, phase or echo if needed - all effects at the front.  That's it.  I can never get my amp, which is usually a 30 watt single speaker valve combo, loud enough (even at gigging levels) to start really breaking up.  I keep the FX levels the same for home and/or gigging and just turn the amp up for live use (still through the clean channel).

    I read a lot about guitarists going for natural break up and no effects but at pub levels I can never get to that.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71952
    I must be unusual… I use effects live even more than I do at home. Usually turned up further too - the subtlety tends to get lost otherwise. But I do tend to use effects as dramatic parts of the arrangement, rather than as 'sweetening' for the basic sound. The only real difference otherwise would be that you need distortion turned up much further in a mix compared to at home.

    And I always raise up my amp, though never tilt it - I don't like it blasting at my ears at short range. It just sounds better in the mix like that - it naturally rolls off the fundamentals so they don't fight with the bass. (The bass cab should always be on the floor.) That way you get a better, clearer mix without having to EQ anything.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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