Line 6 Helix vs Fractal Axe FX 2 vs EVH 5150III

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Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
As per some of the tests me and @guitarfishbay did this weekend, I made a video. This compares the Helix with the Axe FX2 and my 5150III 50-watter. IR is the same in all cases, apart from the real amp+cab+mic combination.

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  • Nice work Drew.

    Time codes are in the pinned comment on YouTube. 
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13929
    Aren't we past this amp vs modeller squit yet? 


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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    edited April 2017
    Aren't we past this amp vs modeller squit yet? 
    I guess this kind of video can help people decide for themselves. I'm not sure that's a given for all people. If it is for you then great, but there's still plenty of debate on the subject so hopefully examples are more productive than just descriptions for the people who haven't decided yet.

    I found it interesting. It's about as fair as we could make it since the Line 6 guy dialled in the Line 6 and the Fractal guy dialled in the Fractal, so no scope for bias sabotage/lack of understanding on a unit as was raised in another thread regarding comparisons. While it would be possible for someone else to get even better sounds out of either unit we feel we did a decent enough job to be representative.

    The riff by nature requires the sound to work for open chords as well as chunky palm muting, which is a good test of dynamics and saturation character. It's also the longest Tool song released in 2017 so far...

    Except for the Axe FX 5153 advance clip and the Helix Epic clip the rest of the patches were using basic controls on the amp block with no extra EQ and hopefully show what a person may be able to dial in with minimal effort (which is a major factor for many, both of us included). 
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  • equalsqlequalsql Frets: 6084
    Oh Boy! Am i going to enjoy watching this. Thanks for the hard work Drew :)
    (pronounced: equal-sequel)   "I suffered for my art.. now it's your turn"
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27580
    Aren't we past this amp vs modeller squit yet? 
    I think the comparisons can be interesting no matter your stance on it.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Aren't we past this amp vs modeller squit yet? 
    No.
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    Nice work chaps.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Thanks for doing this. It's made side by side listening a lot easier. I don't have any decent reference speakers, so to listen I used my IEMs. They have their limitations, but are still better than the various small speaker I have around the house.

    Whilst this isn't the type of music that I normally listen to I have a clear favourite, which is the amp/load box/IR combination.

    In comparison all models of the Helix sound fundamentally darker, and what there is at the top end sounds harsh, without the upper mid resonance of the base track. The final tone matched example was worse in this respect.

    The AxeFX is not as dark as the Helix, but there's some added top end crackle. I'm not sure whether this is endemic in the modelling, caused by clipping within the processing, or the result of more "stuff" being added to try to bring the sound closer to the base track e.g. the tubescreamer.

    Something I've noticed over recent years, as modelling algorithms have got better, is that the sound has got clearer because unwanted audio artefacts were removed. Final confirmation for me was seeing the waveforms for each track towards the end of the video. There was a correlation between the tracks I liked least and the squareness of the waveform envelopes. For this type of overdriven sound, when used for recording, there's still more work to do. 

    Thanks again for the work. How about running a similar comparison for a couple of low gain amps?
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • Interesting comments @Roland, thanks for listening.

    Drew can give you a more detailed break down of his experiences with dialling in the Helix if he likes, but the primary issue I found was trying to get in the ballpark of the dynamics of the reference amp + loadbox + IR clip, which I agree is the best sounding here.

    The primary characteristics in question to my understanding were the tight punchy palm mutes, with which all the notes are punchy (transient response) and weighty (frequency response) without too much deep flubby resonance, and then how big and clear the chords were still able to sound in the open section while maintaining an aggressive voicing and level of gain (and of course retaining enough low end to be full sounding).  Historically amp modellers haven't really been able to do this too well, but I think both of us have been using some form of modelling product regularly in the past 10 years so we're definitely not anti digital.
      
    While there was no direct 50 watt EVH model for comparison those characteristics are pretty core to why a lot of players like high gain valve amps and many of them will do that kind of tone, though some need a boost to tighten.  None of the clips use any additional EQ blocks except Drew's L6 Epic clip.  All the Axe FX 2 clips were amp block only except for when it says there's a tubescreamer.

    Of both the modellers, my favourite overall is the Fractal 6505+ model.  While I still think the real amp + loadbox sounds best I'd be more than happy to use that.

    Regarding the other Fractal models, I felt the 5150 block wasn't tight enough without the boost and with the boost the character changed a lot compared to the reference clip.  I did like the second version of the boosted 5150 but it isn't really the same kind of tone. Generally the 5150 block would be a go to amp for me and I did like how the chords sounded in the unboosted version.  

    I didn't really like the 5150 III with basic settings if I'm honest, and would emphasise it took quite some faff to create the advanced setting.  I don't tend to use that model much as I prefer the Peavey models. In general all the other tones came together quite quickly (with the master volume being a key setting for overall dynamics), and I do feel it is quite straightforward to get a decent sound from the Fractal amp models.  However I'm familiar with the real EVH 5150 amp and it is about as plug in and play as you can get.

    Of the Helix models my overall favourite was the Archon, I felt it had a little less gain but overall I thought it sounded best throughout both sections. I understand this is @Drew_TNBD 's go to amp on the Helix and I can see why.  I thought the EQ'd Epic clip had good tightness but I didn't actually like the chords on it as much.  The chords on the Panama (Peavey 5150) sounded fine to me but the overall low end - while undoubtably deeper than the Fractal Peavey tones in this test did not sound as tight or punchy IMO with the palm mutes.  Similarly I didn't like the palm mutes on the SLO but as per the other thread I couldn't really get anything great out of the Axe FX 2 model either - perhaps it's not the right type of amp for this tone.  I've never played a real one to know.

    Matching these for volume of course makes an impact on how we perceive them, however it is actually quite difficult to match this many different sounds as some will be louder say on the palm mutes whereas other may be louder on the chords, and of course there's how the general EQ of the tone will impact perceived volume.  Even the order in which you listen to sounds can make a difference to your perception, but having the time codes on YouTube means a person can listen in whatever order they want.  I think given we were both trying to dial towards a defined base tone it is about as fair as it can be.

    Regarding a lower gain comparison I'd be happy to do that at some point but the limiting factor is I don't really have any guitars that are suitable to be representative of a typical user - mine are all in drop B with thick strings and high output pickups.  I think all of Drew's guitars also are tuned fairly low with high output pickups.  I think to do a lower gain test it'd be much more helpful if a standard tuned Strat/Tele/Les Paul with stock pickups could be used.
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  • ennspekennspek Frets: 1626
    Aren't we past this amp vs modeller squit yet? 
    No. Even if you are comparisons like this are rare and should be appreciated. There's a lot if work here.
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  • VaiaiVaiai Frets: 530
    Look forward to watching this but a wee observation I made yesterday while playing my LT thru the power section of my amp but in 4CM so I could use the Victory's own gain and then jump to a modelled amp - in this case the Panama (5150 clone) At the time I could hear the difference - my amp had more bottom end and was fuller - I had not tweaked or added any EQ etc but it was just a quick test.

    I sent it to a mate who is considering a Helix and listened back just to see it sounded ok - The first sound I heard was great so I thought ok that's the amp - and then the amp came on and I realised it was the modelling I had heard. (I re-iterate - I did no EQ etc so could def work on getting them closer)

    TLDR - if you listen to the sound in isolation with no expectation you'd probably find it harder to tell - when you hear them side by side it's definitely easier.
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  • My fave overall,and it was a close one, was the amp itself. 

    My fave model sound was probably the helix achetype one, although i found there was little in it and, randomly clicking through, i was unable to clearly identify each clip. They are all pretty close to the home tone and I'd be happy with any. 

    In a mix? I doubt I'd find anything much different. But all of the tones were good imo. 
     
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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9446
    Good work Drew.

    The guitar style is def miles from my own, but it remains a really valid exercise.

    @Drew_TNBD -what were you overall thoughts and findings of this 'shoot out' ?
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    edited April 2017
    In a mix? I doubt I'd find anything much different.
    I agree any would be fine for a live gig through the PA. Through a guitar cab is another thing and not one we could realistically test.

    Going off my own experience with recording I think by the time you've high passed the guitars to leave low end room for a bass and kick the relative punch of each amp model would still make a difference, especially if you wanted a guitars forward mix. This is where the low note being punchy (as opposed to just bassy) makes a difference for rock/metal type tones. I think it's often an internet wisdom that differences disappear in a mix and yes it's true a lot of subtlety is lost, but there are still favourable characteristics. Basically, I would expect the real amp to sound even better in a typical mix relative to certain amp models, though I think you could get a workable tone out of either. But we didn't have a full track for this test and of course quantifying how easy it would be to get a good tone is a little more difficult and a lot more subjective.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445

    @Drew_TNBD -what were you overall thoughts and findings of this 'shoot out' ?
    Good question.

    What is abundantly clear to me is that we are in such a great time for guitar tone and recording. If anyone is happy with their Helix or Axe FX or Atomic Amplifire, Eleven Rack, etc... then you should be. They're all great units and when you start getting into the territory of analysing on the level that we are, it can get a little corksniffy.

    Having said that, I still feel that real amps rule the roost. Every time I listen to these clips over the last few days, my preference for the modelled tones changes, but the trophy consistently goes to the real amp - even in a blind test where I turn around and just listen to the changes.

    I think modellers are struggling to get a nice even tone across palm mutes and big open chords. I still don't think they're dynamic enough - even the hallowed Axe FX doesn't quite get there for me.

    My favourites were the real amp+loadbox+IR combination, the Axe FX 5150III advanced tweaks, and the Axe FX 6505+.

    I like the Helix tones, but even as someone who owns and loves the thing... I tend to the think the Axe FX is better. At least for these kinds of tones.

    What blew me away a bit was that I really disliked the real cab and microphone. I think I'm done recording real cabs for a bit - IR's just sound better to me right now!
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Drew_TNBD said:

    What blew me away a bit was that I really disliked the real cab and microphone. I think I'm done recording real cabs for a bit - IR's just sound better to me right now!
    True. It shows how much hard work, skill, and equipment has gone into capturing the guitar sound in the recordings we are used to.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Roland said:
    Drew_TNBD said:

    What blew me away a bit was that I really disliked the real cab and microphone. I think I'm done recording real cabs for a bit - IR's just sound better to me right now!
    True. It shows how much hard work, skill, and equipment has gone into capturing the guitar sound in the recordings we are used to.
    Don't get me wrong, I know all about that and have achieved great tones in the past. But that particular combination of my Egnater cab and my SM57A and my room at home... not a good mix I don't think. I might replace that cab one day!
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  • Roland said:
    Drew_TNBD said:

    What blew me away a bit was that I really disliked the real cab and microphone. I think I'm done recording real cabs for a bit - IR's just sound better to me right now!
    True. It shows how much hard work, skill, and equipment has gone into capturing the guitar sound in the recordings we are used to.
    I came to a similar conclusion a while ago. I could not get the same quality of result micing a cab at home vs a good quality IR and you can buy a detailed pack of IRs for the price of a couple of packs of strings. Given it takes a couple of minutes to set up and place a mic vs seconds to scroll through IRs I genuinely think it's a superior workflow.

    I know you can scroll through IRs using your feet on the Helix which is super cool. About all I can do with my feet and a real mic set up is trip over the cable and lose the mic position.
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  • Drew_TNBD said:
    Roland said:
    Drew_TNBD said:

    What blew me away a bit was that I really disliked the real cab and microphone. I think I'm done recording real cabs for a bit - IR's just sound better to me right now!
    True. It shows how much hard work, skill, and equipment has gone into capturing the guitar sound in the recordings we are used to.
    Don't get me wrong, I know all about that and have achieved great tones in the past. But that particular combination of my Egnater cab and my SM57A and my room at home... not a good mix I don't think. I might replace that cab one day!
    Honestly one factor is probably the room. I bet the cab will sound great at the studio where you record the BFD packs.

    The 57A is supposed to have more highs too - maybe you need to try a regular 57? 
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Roland said:
    Drew_TNBD said:

    What blew me away a bit was that I really disliked the real cab and microphone. I think I'm done recording real cabs for a bit - IR's just sound better to me right now!
    True. It shows how much hard work, skill, and equipment has gone into capturing the guitar sound in the recordings we are used to.
    Don't get me wrong, I know all about that and have achieved great tones in the past. But that particular combination of my Egnater cab and my SM57A and my room at home... not a good mix I don't think. I might replace that cab one day!
    Honestly one factor is probably the room. I bet the cab will sound great at the studio where you record the BFD packs.

    The 57A is supposed to have more highs too - maybe you need to try a regular 57? 
    Yeah I keep meaning to pick a 57 up!!
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