The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

VimFuego

I think she probably does care about the NHS etc, however she would face a war with her own party over tax rises that would make Corbyns fights with the PLP look like a little bun fight. Don't forget, a politicians worst enemy always sits behind them in the commons, not in front of them.

Fretwired

VimFuego said:

she'd be crazy, NHS and social care is where they are weakest. And tax rises? she'll be at permenant war with her own party.

She's going for it .. apparently she was in Wales this afternoon and made a speech in which she said 'if you want to know how bad Labour is with the NHS come to Wales ' (words to that effect) and big Tory plans are coming up. It would make sense as the core Tory voters who want Brexit will vote Tory whatever happens and by shifting the campaign away from Brexit where she's strong she stands a chance of kicking Labour while their down. May has room to shift to the left and a lot of Tory voters are older people who may have elderly relatives or be elderly themselves. Well funded social care provision would be a vote winner. And the final point is the NHS is in crisis so she's going to have to find more money - why not stick promise more cash in your manifesto and win some extra votes.

I don't think tax rises will damage her as Labour have already announced they will raise tax as have the Lib Dems so its neutral and I think the Tories scent a major three digit victory and power for another couple of elections (subject to Brexit and the economy).

Apparently Labour are rehashing Miliband's manifesto. A dumb move as the Tories have pinched the best bits already.

Heartfeltdawn

VimFuego said:

I think she probably does care about the NHS etc, however she would face a war with her own party over tax rises that would make Corbyns fights with the PLP look like a little bun fight. Don't forget, a politicians worst enemy always sits behind them in the commons, not in front of them.

It depends on the form that the tax rises take. The council tax rises for social care got through without too much hassle and the as yet the changes in business rates hasn't caused a large anti-Conservative surge to occur despite it being a very poor decision in my view. 

Now is the time you can introduce unpopular policies. A small Conservative tax rise can be brushed off with the phrase "Corbyn would tax you more". Tax rises to fund the NHS might not sit easy with some backbenchers but it would be the most palatable way to get the public to accept them. 

There's also the angle that a lot of voters won't regard the Conservatives as being tax cutters but being people who will raise them grudgingly, whereas their main opposition are more gung ho with rises. 

ThePrettyDamned

This thread is depressing. 

Not you guys. Just seeing what British politics is - scheming and plotting, no straightforward answers, no real focus. 

Blarg. No wonder no one knows how they want to vote. 

capo4th

They just shout out sound bites which people want to hear then do something entirely different once votes have been cast.

Cast your mind back to the key campaigners for Brexit remain and leave ?

where the fuck are they now ?????????????????

Soundbites promises lies over promise under deliver

ToneControl

VimFuego said:

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

Fretwired said:

Listened to the R4 interview this morning with Labour's Sir Keir Starmer. If Labour win they will immediately guarantee the rights of all EU citizens without expecting anything in return and will insist on access to the single market, no tariffs etc. In fact every benefit we have now. Nick Robinson suggested this was a wish list and what happens if the EU say NON. There would be a vote in the HoC and if the deal was rejected we'd remain in the EU.

So if you want to remain in the EU vote Labour.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/general-election-2017-labour-leaves-door-open-keeping-uk-eu/

pure genius
there goes all the remaining former labour voters who are Brexiteers

… but potentially capturing Remain voters who don't want a hard Brexit, ideally would prefer no Brexit at all, are disappointed that the pro-EU Lib Dems appear too weak to grasp this firmly enough, and/or who don't think Tim Nice But Dim would make a very good PM.

I know who I'm voting for now.

it's an interesting gambit north of the border. It's bascially occupying the same space as the SNP, but with a (slightly) more realistic chance of also getting seats in England and Wales.

how would it increase the chances of getting seats in England and Wales?
It's known that many normal labour voters voted for Brexit
would it not have been best to shut up about brexit and concentrate on core labour values?

Clearly in Scotland, the SNP hijacked labour's vote - I imagine that could have waned very slightly, but it's likely that the tories will be the only ones who can gain seats there

ToneControl

In the last election, Ed's Mrs visited our friend a few doors a away, since she's a Labour activist, her home was used as the campaigning base for this bit of the town.
Then Mrs Milli went round a few doors and visited our closer friend, who had previously confirmed as a labour voter to canvassers, and had a tea and short chat.

It's a very marginal seat, and I'm wondering if Jezza knocks on my door, what would I say?

So far my intention is to say "I was determined to not vote labour whilst you're the leader, but I will anyway, but do you understand you have destroyed the labour party?"

Jalapeno

Yes the NHS will always need more money, but the current shambles has little to do with the record amounts of cash pumped in already.  It's fundamentally bollocksed up organisationally.

ToneControl

you know, I have first hand seen the vast amount of inefficiency and ineptitude in HMRC and DWP
However, I only have a small amount of experience with the Dept of Health  - who seemed much the same

What is the NHS like? is there vast waste and inefficiency like all the other public sector environments?

ToneControl

Tim nice but dim eating shit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39710559

an evangelical Christian who "doesn't believe gay sex is a sin"?
what a big fat liar with pants on fiyah

VimFuego

ToneControl said:

VimFuego said:

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

Fretwired said:

Listened to the R4 interview this morning with Labour's Sir Keir Starmer. If Labour win they will immediately guarantee the rights of all EU citizens without expecting anything in return and will insist on access to the single market, no tariffs etc. In fact every benefit we have now. Nick Robinson suggested this was a wish list and what happens if the EU say NON. There would be a vote in the HoC and if the deal was rejected we'd remain in the EU.

So if you want to remain in the EU vote Labour.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/general-election-2017-labour-leaves-door-open-keeping-uk-eu/

pure genius
there goes all the remaining former labour voters who are Brexiteers

… but potentially capturing Remain voters who don't want a hard Brexit, ideally would prefer no Brexit at all, are disappointed that the pro-EU Lib Dems appear too weak to grasp this firmly enough, and/or who don't think Tim Nice But Dim would make a very good PM.

I know who I'm voting for now.

it's an interesting gambit north of the border. It's bascially occupying the same space as the SNP, but with a (slightly) more realistic chance of also getting seats in England and Wales.

how would it increase the chances of getting seats in England and Wales?
It's known that many normal labour voters voted for Brexit
would it not have been best to shut up about brexit and concentrate on core labour values?

Clearly in Scotland, the SNP hijacked labour's vote - I imagine that could have waned very slightly, but it's likely that the tories will be the only ones who can gain seats there

read what I said, I said more chances than the SNP.

Brize

ToneControl said:

Tim nice but dim eating shit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39710559

an evangelical Christian who "doesn't believe gay sex is a sin"?
what a big fat liar with pants on fiyah

Quite amusing to watch him squirm through that interview and almost whisper the term 'gay sex'. Saying it no doubt puts impure thoughts into his mind.

Drew_TNBD

ToneControl said:

Tim nice but dim eating shit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39710559

an evangelical Christian who "doesn't believe gay sex is a sin"?
what a big fat liar with pants on fiyah

Brize said:

ToneControl said:

Tim nice but dim eating shit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39710559

an evangelical Christian who "doesn't believe gay sex is a sin"?
what a big fat liar with pants on fiyah

Quite amusing to watch him squirm through that interview and almost whisper the term 'gay sex'. Saying it no doubt puts impure thoughts into his mind.

I thought so initially. But check his voting recording on the bumming issue.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

Tim nice but dim eating shit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39710559

an evangelical Christian who "doesn't believe gay sex is a sin"?
what a big fat liar with pants on fiyah

His religion is his own personal thing. He isn't campaigning for his belief system to be adopted by the whole country. His belief is only a problem if he takes part in actions that discriminate against homosexuals. Abstaining on the gay marriage vote meant he didn't participate rather than discriminate against them. 

Religion is idiotic to me but I recognise that there are many who have their faith. The people within my own family who have a faith-based system of worship going on... I'll defend them up to the point where they discriminate against someone else for having a differing ideology. It's no different to believing in free speech and allowing groups you are opposed to in every way to have their right to speak. 

I found his responses actually quite thoughtful. He's quite right to say that he gets the theological questions that others do not get. It's the sort of clash of ideologies you find when religion and homosexuality mix, how something as old as religion bashes up against modern liberalism. Go and ask someone like Andrew Sullivan about how he reconciles his homosexuality with his Catholic beliefs and his belief that hate laws undermine the freedom of speech. I would thoroughly recommend starting with his book Virtually Normal as an introduction. 

ICBM

ToneControl said:

It's a very marginal seat, and I'm wondering if Jezza knocks on my door, what would I say?

So far my intention is to say "I was determined to not vote labour whilst you're the leader, but I will anyway, but do you understand you have destroyed the labour party?"

To be fair, Corbyn didn't destroy the Labour Party.

Tony Blair did.

The only reason Corbyn is leader now is as a reaction to the New Labour careerists who were the other leadership candidates, and who didn't seem to have a single principle between them. Corbyn's attraction was that he has principles - rather too many intransigent ones for a lot of people's liking, admittedly.

Blair made Labour electable, but he also eroded its very reason for existence by essentially stealing the Tories' clothes and repackaging them in soundbites and spin. It was only a matter of time before the real Tories wanted them back.

The tragedy for Labour is that Corbyn's principles are largely in the right place and represent a lot of what the Labour Party should stand for, and would almost certainly be far more popular than he's given credit for if he was both capable of leading his partly coherently so they're all on a similar message, and presenting them more forcefully. As it is the disarray and incoherence is an open goal for the Tories, to the point that they can make it the story rather than the policies. He doesn't even seem willing to take the fight to the press when they constantly and intentionally misrepresent him, and allow the Tories free rein to do the same.

Sad.

Fretwired

Drew_TNBD said:

I thought so initially. But check his voting recording on the bumming issue.

His voting record is irrelevant. He's upset a lot of people and shown why God worshipping politicians shouldn't hold high office.

holnrew

I wish I could vote for ICBM and HFD

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

His voting record is irrelevant. He's upset a lot of people and shown why God worshipping politicians shouldn't hold high office.

Finally Fretwired goes SJW. You should start a petition #noprayingjustgaying

NB. I had to add the LOl as you had a Wow and a Wis. Perfect hat trick had to be done. 

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

ToneControl said:

Tim nice but dim eating shit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39710559

an evangelical Christian who "doesn't believe gay sex is a sin"?
what a big fat liar with pants on fiyah

His religion is his own personal thing. He isn't campaigning for his belief system to be adopted by the whole country. His belief is only a problem if he takes part in actions that discriminate against homosexuals. Abstaining on the gay marriage vote meant he didn't participate rather than discriminate against them. 

Religion is idiotic to me but I recognise that there are many who have their faith. The people within my own family who have a faith-based system of worship going on... I'll defend them up to the point where they discriminate against someone else for having a differing ideology. It's no different to believing in free speech and allowing groups you are opposed to in every way to have their right to speak. 

I found his responses actually quite thoughtful. He's quite right to say that he gets the theological questions that others do not get. It's the sort of clash of ideologies you find when religion and homosexuality mix, how something as old as religion bashes up against modern liberalism. Go and ask someone like Andrew Sullivan about how he reconciles his homosexuality with his Catholic beliefs and his belief that hate laws undermine the freedom of speech. I would thoroughly recommend starting with his book Virtually Normal as an introduction. 

no, that's not true:
you can't stand as leader of a political party and have personal beliefs that clash with the society you aspire to lead

As far as I understand it, evangelicalism is a fundamentalist variation of Christianity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism#Characteristics

As such the bible condemns homosexuality - hence the repeated questions he has faced in a secular society
Either he shares the belief that homosexuality is a sin, or not.
Personally, I think he is lying when he denies the biblical teaching - his body language says it all

ToneControl

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

It's a very marginal seat, and I'm wondering if Jezza knocks on my door, what would I say?

So far my intention is to say "I was determined to not vote labour whilst you're the leader, but I will anyway, but do you understand you have destroyed the labour party?"

To be fair, Corbyn didn't destroy the Labour Party.

Tony Blair did.

The only reason Corbyn is leader now is as a reaction to the New Labour careerists who were the other leadership candidates, and who didn't seem to have a single principle between them. Corbyn's attraction was that he has principles - rather too many intransigent ones for a lot of people's liking, admittedly.

Blair made Labour electable, but he also eroded its very reason for existence by essentially stealing the Tories' clothes and repackaging them in soundbites and spin. It was only a matter of time before the real Tories wanted them back.

The tragedy for Labour is that Corbyn's principles are largely in the right place and represent a lot of what the Labour Party should stand for, and would almost certainly be far more popular than he's given credit for if he was both capable of leading his partly coherently so they're all on a similar message, and presenting them more forcefully. As it is the disarray and incoherence is an open goal for the Tories, to the point that they can make it the story rather than the policies. He doesn't even seem willing to take the fight to the press when they constantly and intentionally misrepresent him, and allow the Tories free rein to do the same.

Sad.

it's a good narrative, but you could apply many others to the facts

my one is that new Labour were unfortunate enough to be in charge when the global bubble burst
the Tories shamelessly exploited this, and with the aid of the press, convinced many that (new) Labour were incompetent with the economy

soundbites and spin are probably unavoidable in any aspirant party, the SNP played that tactic well, I can't see how that destroyed the labour party. Look how well parties have done when they bail out of doing PR properly

I accept that Corbyn comes across more as a normal, unpolished bloke, but I seriously doubt he has any more principles or integrity than most labour MPs. Traingate should illustrate this adequately

Corbyn makes lists of things that are unfair (anyone can do that), and proposes curative policies that appear destructive or risky. This will never appeal to the majority. I can list what's unfair, this does not qualify me to lead the country.