Vintage AC30 advice....

IvisonGuitars

I'm looking to the esteemed gentlemen here who may have experience of these amps, @Dodge & @ICBM spring to mind, I'm sure there are many more!

I've been doing the boutique VOX thing for a good 10 years now (Matchless, BadCat, TopHat) but ive recently got the hankering to try a real deal vintage AC30.

Now, I've avoid these like the plague up to now because, have toured with a few of them over the years, my only experiences involve blown fuses, blown valves and flames.....but in my advancing years, I feel like a challenge!

Yet I know bugger all about them.

What's the best sounding/classic configuration/most desirable/most reliable? Is there any corrilation between those statements? Or do I stick with the boutique version? (The Bad Cat 2x12 is going nowhere BTW).

For reference I'm playing alt. Country/Roots Rock etc

Any help/guidance/advice would be most appreciated!

ThePrettyDamned

I was recommended to avoid old vox amps. 

The circuits are more complex than fenders so more expensive to overhaul if it needs work, which they usually seem to. It's odd that a boutique fender style is often just a couple of handfuls of parts usually soldered up in the original fender layout, but that's what people are happy to pay for instead of paying the same amount or less for the real deal and a visit to the tech. 

Vox amps are not, they seem to have a lot more bits and a much more complex circuit and there are real issues with some of them. Boutique ones like badcats presumably fix some of these, although some reckon they lose some of the magic along the way. 

Honestly, I really liked the modern ones. I tried one with a couple of greenbacks in and it was brilliant, and I've heard an ac15 with a blue and it sounded spot on vintage. They may be more reliable too. 

Apologies for really just vomiting back info I was told a couple of years back. It stuck with me though, I avoided vox amps until the chance to buy an ef86 one came up for the right money hand wired by danplifier. Hopefully the very knowledgeable will be along to help a lot more soon! 

ICBM

The best-sounding in my opinion is the standard AC30/6 Top Boost - six inputs, Vib/Trem channel, Treble/Bass/Cut tone controls. These were made throughout the 60s - although the earliest have the top boost circuit in an add-on panel on the back. These are silly money now though, at least for anything that's in decent condition, and especially the earliest 'JMI' copper-panel ones.

After that the quality becomes very variable - the early-70s ('Birch-Stolec' era) ones are to be avoided, the build quality was extremely poor. From '74-'79 ('Dallas' era) it went back to good, but the valve rectifier was dropped, which is either a good thing (tighter, more 'rocky' tone, better reliability) or bad (loss of some of the classic compression) depending on your viewpoint. In the early 80s (first 'Rose-Morris' era) they went back to bad again.

In the early 90s (second Rose-Morris era) reissues became available with more or less the correct vintage circuit but very different construction - full PCB, but much higher quality than the early-70s ones. These sound pretty close to the vintage ones and are generally reliable. These were in turn replaced by the Marshall-built 'Korg' reissues from the mid 90s onwards, which are similar and also good. These were dropped around ten years ago.

If you want more modern features there are a few different models too…

If it was me and you want the classic sound I'd buy a modern AC30TBX (blue speaker) reissue. Originals are very nice but they do have some of the maintenance issues you're worried about, and it's difficult to totally bulletproof them. If you want the ability to get it to overdrive at lower volume I'd get either the 2000s AC30CC (best features overall), or a current AC30HW (hand wired, best modern build quality). NB, there are two other 'HW' models, neither of which are as good - an expensive one made in the early 2000s, and a cheaper 'Heritage' one from about ten years ago which is neither really hand-wired or (in my opinion) good-sounding.

Confused yet?

Ossyrocks

@miserneil I've had about 12 old AC30's and to be honest they are all over the place, whilst they are all generally voxey, not one really sounded like another.

My favourite is the earliest 4 input black panel with the EF86 pre-amp. I had one of those which I bought as a basket case, it literally came as a cardboard box full of parts which I restored and reassembled. It was an amazing amp when finished.

I have a mate who had the largest collection of Vox amps in Europe, but is currently in the process of selling 90% of it. He also built some extremely accurate replicas which are built with NOS parts. I've sent you an email.

Rob.

Dodge

@miserneil - I'd echo pretty much everything @ICBM said.  As you know, I bought two 60's JMI AC30 top boosts last year - if you're patient, you can still get them for sensible money.  Both of mine were circuit-correct and the speakers and iron were all original.  One sounds perhaps slightly tighter than the other, but they're 50 years old and one of them has clearly seen more use.

The prices have gone bonkers though - and some of the ones on Ebay are beyond funny.  I've routinely seen JMI chassis in Dallas Arbiter cabinets, and people claiming their 80's Rose Morris AC30 was bought in the 60's.  They're fairly easy to identify in the pics though, what's more difficult is identifying if the amp has been modded.  Either way, PM me if you want to know what I paid for mine.

For something modern and reliable, the Marshall-built Korg AC30TBX's are pretty good - they tend to go for £650-800 depending on condition and covering (they did a version in fawn tolex which is utterly lovely).  I think the alnico blues are essential.  Greenbacks still work, but the blues are an integral part of the AC30 charm.

The 4 hole EF86 AC30's are a lovely thing as @Ossyrocks said, if you favour the EF86 channel on your DC30 / Black Cat, then that's a sign you'd like those early ones, but I think from chats we've had, the top boost channel is what you like.

My first choice would be to seek out a JMI original, second choice would be a late 60's VSL/VSEL (still circuit correct with the rectifier) and third choice would be a Marshall-built Korg AC30 TBX.  I know nothing of the modern far-Eastern built models, but the 70's Dallas Arbiter models without the valve rectifier are pretty good, especially if you can find one with silver alnicos.

As always, happy to help with identification etc.

impmann

FWIW - I'm not keen on AC30s made post Dartford Road fire. They started messing with the circuit and a lot of it didn't improve the sound. The 1970s ones really didn't do it for me. The first of the later ones that are worth considering (IMHO) are the Korg TBXs as mentioned above (Elvis Costello gigged a pair of them for a lot of the 1990s and he got a fantastic sound from his - check out the YT clips of him on Later with Jools playing "Thirteen Steps Lead Down"). I'm not the biggest fan of the Chinese stuff - I've owned a couple and didn't feel they sounded quite 'right'. They sounded a bit like a characature to me - nice but not the same as a real early 60s amp.

I'd also avoid "modified" or "uprated" units - and that includes ones with the aftermarket (or even Vox retrofitted) Top Boost circuit, with the knobs in the back panel. Often these rats nests have not been done well - if in doubt, walk away.

I was always a fan of the "Bass" models - Top Boost is all well and good (and very toppy at times) but I never used that channel. The "Bass" models had very little difference to the "Treble" non-TB models but each one I've had seemed to be slightly warmer and clearer.

As has been said some of the prices of "original" amps (ho ho) on eBay are just stoopid - but if you look carefully, they keep getting advertised but not sold.

IvisonGuitars

Thanks for the VERY detailed advice chaps, it's much appreciated and does seem to comfirm the minefield that I thought they might be.

I think, realistically, I should stay with boutique (Bad Cat). As much as I love the idea of a vintage AC30, the reality of gigging one just seems too risky for me. I know even if I drop a wad of cash on one, the moment a fuse blows or it lets me down, it'll be in the nearest skip. I've not (famous last words/touch wood) had any problems with the Bad Cat in 10 years of gigging. I also know that I love the sound of them.

I know my view of them has been severely tainted by working for a band who took delivery (against my wishes) of 5 of the remade JMI AC30's from the industry's favourite dealers in Doncaster and 3 of them didn't work right out of the box!! I managed to limp the other two along for a tour until we ditched them totally.

I think I'll leave it as a romantic notion

ICBM

miserneil said:

I know my view of them has been severely tainted by working for a band who took delivery (against my wishes) of 5 of the remade JMI AC30's from the industry's favourite dealers in Doncaster and 3 of them didn't work right out of the box!!

I sometimes wonder if the people 'our friends in the North' employ to build their stuff deliberately sabotage some of their work in order to damage their business. I've seen some of their faking which was so blatant and leaving them wide open to being spotted that it can't possibly be accidental, I don't think. By all accounts they have a pretty sour relationship with their builders, some of who otherwise have a good reputation.

ThePrettyDamned

miserneil said:

Thanks for the VERY detailed advice chaps, it's much appreciated and does seem to comfirm the minefield that I thought they might be.

I think, realistically, I should stay with boutique (Bad Cat). As much as I love the idea of a vintage AC30, the reality of gigging one just seems too risky for me. I know even if I drop a wad of cash on one, the moment a fuse blows or it lets me down, it'll be in the nearest skip. I've not (famous last words/touch wood) had any problems with the Bad Cat in 10 years of gigging. I also know that I love the sound of them.

I know my view of them has been severely tainted by working for a band who took delivery (against my wishes) of 5 of the remade JMI AC30's from the industry's favourite dealers in Doncaster and 3 of them didn't work right out of the box!! I managed to limp the other two along for a tour until we ditched them totally.

I think I'll leave it as a romantic notion

Have you considered a custom badcat that's a more faithful recreation but built well?

Thats assuming it already isn't. But I've tried a couple of Dr Z vox style amps and I'd happily take a standard vox over them, as wonderful as they were - they were more refined and less fun. 

Of course, this is *well* into snobbery land and realistically I love anything that sounds broadly voxey so it's maybe irrelevant. 

Moe_Zambeek

Audio Kitchen Big Chopper is quite Voxey. As is the combover  

impmann

ICBM said:

miserneil said:

I know my view of them has been severely tainted by working for a band who took delivery (against my wishes) of 5 of the remade JMI AC30's from the industry's favourite dealers in Doncaster and 3 of them didn't work right out of the box!!

I sometimes wonder if the people 'our friends in the North' employ to build their stuff deliberately sabotage some of their work in order to damage their business. I've seen some of their faking which was so blatant and leaving them wide open to being spotted that it can't possibly be accidental, I don't think. By all accounts they have a pretty sour relationship with their builders, some of who otherwise have a good reputation.

Yes, I've considered that too - I know that the guy who was building the JMI stuff was owed a *lot* of money and eventually pulled the plug, leaving 'them' with a lot of half-built stuff. In view of how good the guy was that building them originally, I can only assume that either 1) he deliberately left bits out to make a point to 'them' or 2) the half-built stuff was finished off by a third party who was "inexpensive".

For the record, I've played through a fawn JMI that was glorious and very close to sounding like a real one. However, I've heard a lot of tales of woe too...

saint_ivey

Hi Neil. As you know, I have a bias but my experience has been...

• The older, true vintage Vox's can be temperamental; subject to overheating and blowing valves.
• The newer Vox's can be clinical sounding and not so dynamic.
• The Greenback speakers sound good but not what I consider classic Vox, more like a decent sounding generic rock amp. The alnico blues are the speaker of choice for the AC30. They have all the grit and chime you can imagine.  
• The best of both is the Vox AC30HW2X. Vox have combined experience and technology to bring the dynamics and class of the vintage with the advantages of modern tech. This means... they don't overheat, have separate Normal & Top Boost channels which can be used independently or jumped together, the normal channel has a bright switch to meet the taste of those who think its too dark, the TB channel has a hot/cold switch which is selectable via footswitch for additional boost, the master volume enables lower levels and more tweakability of tones but can also be switched totally out of the circuit for that pure vintage vibe. It has a pair of 12" alnico blue speakers and speaker outputs for an external cab which can be set for either 8 or 16 ohms. There's no external standby switch as warm up is automatically controlled internally. Of course it's all point-to-point handwired with not a circuit board in sight.

There's a world of difference between the handwired series and the next level down which is why the HW are an extra £600. I love my AC30HW2X so much I also bought the hardwired AC4 as my practice amp! Lovely! 

The only downside in my view is the weight. It's a two man task unless you have a strong back.

P.S. It's also crazy LOUD! If you switch the master volume off it will blow your head off on the first chord.

Danny1969

Being involved with a Shadows club I've played all kinds of AC30's and other early Vox amps ... from one of the first ever built to JMI's and the modern ones. Reliability wise we don't see a lot of issues, rectifier valve failure was one I saw (maybe standby switch in wrong place ? that was a modern one with drive .... bad caps occasionally and valves go ..like other amps ....  these amps are run quite loud as well what with The shadows clubs generally all being retired blokes in their 60's \ 70's with not the best hearing

Soundwise I think they all sound pretty good but there was one very very old one at last years Shadow mania that was fantastic ... might have a pic somewhere ,,,I think it was brown 

pmg

My advice would be to stick with what you have

JohnPerry

I've had a couple of ac30 and ac15 incarnations and played a couple of old ones and I was mightily taken with the ac15hw1x, which I spent half an hour with and it sounded fantastic, every bit as good as a good vintage one to me. Need the Blue in it though 

Monstronaut

Not really relevant but I once had a '65 AC50 which had a clean sound I still dream about. It was perfect and a fair bit cheaper than an AC30 from the same year. I often think about getting another and pairing it with a gold in a 1x12. 

DJH83004

Pretty much all been said by the AC30 gurus, My personal favourite is the copper-top AC30/6, but they generally need things looking at after all these years, typically non-working or noisy trems, noisy of out of tol carbon comp resistors (typically plate load), and leaky Hunts signal caps, are all typical issues that arise, but nothing that can't be sorted.   

ICBM

Monstronaut said:

Not really relevant but I once had a '65 AC50 which had a clean sound I still dream about. It was perfect and a fair bit cheaper than an AC30 from the same year. I often think about getting another and pairing it with a gold in a 1x12. 

AC50s are hugely under-rated - probably because they were never available as a combo and possibly that they're slightly odd-looking by most conventional head standards.

Pigknows

I think that almost any AC30 would be fine for alt country/roots rock.  They're pretty versatile amps.

In my experience, the boutique derivatives don't quite sound the same, but can be dialled in to sound close.
The TopHats and Matchless DC30s I've played seem to have a bit less sparkle and warmth, and are tighter/more muscular than most AC30s..

I have owned most and played nearly all of the AC30 variants up to and including the TBX. I'm not familiar with the more recent variants. I've never really had a problem with reliability, apart from the vib/trem effect which is superflous to my needs anyway. 

I'm currently playing a Jennings AC40 and Korg AC30 TBX that suit me fine and sound great.

Asking prices for '60s AC30s are at an all time high currently.  I'm not convinced that the majority sell for anywhere near some of those asking prices, but who knows.  I suspect that many sellers, having noticed that '60s Voxes sometimes go for big money, decide that they'd prefer to have the money than the amp. 
In any case, I'm not sure that a '60s AC30 would necessarily suit the genres of music you play better than a more recent variant or derivative.

For alt country/roots rock, regardless of price, my recommendation would be to look at an AC30 TBX or Dallas era handwired AC30 with the SS rectifier and greenbacks or blues (which is great sounding, overlooked, and versatile AC30 variant).
 
Early 6 input black panels are great too, though they might be too warm for alt country) and they usually cost a fortune.
'Normal' model copper panel models are 'medium bright'.  'Treble' model copper panels are very bright on all channels.  Top Boost copper and '60s grey panels models have the Top Boost channel which has more gain and extra pots for treble and bass.  

AC50s are great too, and are in some respects and applications (and to some tastes) better amps than an AC30.  '70s handwired AC50s are wonderful amps and, unlike the earlier versions, are fitted with 1/4 inch speaker jack sockets. Loud though. 

In short, I'm not sure it's all that much of a minefield, and a vintage or vintage-sounding AC30 needn't be a money pit.