Strings and Intonation

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12646
    I had a sax player once complain that my guitar's intonation was horribly out. He kept whingeing about it until I fixed the situation. I decked him.
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    Rocker said:
    Intonation is always out, regardless of string brand. My tech tells me to stop whingeing and just play it. But until equal temperament is the same as pythagorean tuning in all keys I'm going to keep whingeing. 

    Buzz Feiten Tuning System. Problem solved.
    Someone's given you a LoL, I'm not sure if you're joking or not (if you are I'll give you another). Equal temperament can't be fixed with tuning, ideally each scale has its own ratios for notes and so for example E in the key of C is not necessarily the same as E in the key of G. The result being intervals change, some people are more sensitive to this than others (I consider myself lucky I can't hear it...).
    If you want to be able to play in any key you have to compromise, hence equal temperament with all notes fixed, but now intervals in all keys are slightly wrong. Then again pythagorean tuning isn't perfect either, since by constructing the whole scale on perfect fifths (okay, it is perfect) you mess up the other intervals more ("so badly out of tune that major chords [may be considered] a dissonance" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning) and that's just within the key. On the guitar you're further limited by the fact that the same note appears on different strings, this means equal temperament has the further benefit you can actually achieve it (modulo setup issues) with appropriate fret placing. @mart's link http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/scheitenballs/ is very good.
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  • MistergMisterg Frets: 293
    I am intrigued by what causes this.
    I assume it is a slight variance in string gauge (thickness) along the length of the string.
    Although I have to admit that I do not understand why the intonation goes out on older used strings.

    If it is to do with variance along the string length, then that must be down to the consistency of the material itself and the consistency of tension in the manufacturing process (or however a string is extruded to a given gauge).

    This is a picture of a broken top e from a pack of "D'Addario" strings bought through an ebay seller (I assume they were fake).  Look how the thickness of the string varies:

    http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh143/werdnayarg/Wire1a.jpg

    This is due to a 'lap' in the wire where an impurity in the raw material has been drawn down into the wire (the black line here):

    http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh143/werdnayarg/Wire2.jpg

    The mechanical properties (mass / unit length, 'stiffness', etc.) of this part of the string would be very different from the rest, so I really doubt that it would either intonate properly, or produce a true clean note. I didn't get the chance to find out as it broke shortly after fitting it - the second time it happened from that pack of 3 sets.

    Caveat emptor.
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  • Every picture tells a story !

    That is a worrying one without a happy ending.

    Very interesting photos, thanks for posting them, I am surprised at the total inconsistency in thickness, as if the extrusion machine was pulsing.  I hope that is restricted to these, and not the legit brands.

    You often do "get what you pay for", unfortunately not always though.  Trusted brand & trusted seller needed me-thinks.

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  • MistergMisterg Frets: 293
    edited February 2014
     I am surprised at the total inconsistency in thickness, as if the extrusion machine was pulsing.  I hope that is restricted to these, and not the legit brands.
    The string is weaker than it should be due to the impurity/fault and the thickness variation is caused by the material 'yielding' locally and necking down when the string has been under tension (either the drawing tension when being manufactured, or the tension from the initial stringing up on the guitar).

    I understand that this type of fault can occur in wire drawing, but that decent QC should have found and rejected these - maybe out of the back door?

    I think a trusted seller is becoming very important!
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    I am not too concerned about picking up LOLs.  My Anderson has BFTS and it sets the standard in tuning accuracy.  Every chord sounds 'right' and in tune.  Whatever the techs say, first try a guitar with BFTS and then decide for yourself.

    I have used a fair number of Elexir string sets over the past fifteen years plus and I never had a duff string.  But then I don't gig and the guitars remain in the music room almost all the time.  Elexirs are not everyone's cup of tea and they are expensive but they last longer.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited February 2014
    Rocker said:
    My Anderson has BFTS and it sets the standard in tuning accuracy.  Every chord sounds 'right' and in tune.
    Yes, but do you tune it using the offsets, or do you tune it normally?

    If you tune it normally you're hearing the - correct - benefit of the slightly forward nut position… which doesn't mean that he should have been given a patent for it or that the rest of the 'system' is valid.

    If you do use the offsets, what keys do you play in? Do you ever use a capo?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    Good questions @ICBM.

    I tune my Anderson using the supplied KORG DT-7 tuner which has the BFTS option [BTFS, Chromatic, Calibrate, Sound] slide switch. I could use my Peterson StroboStomp but I keep it permanently on the sweetened setting for my other guitars.

    I do use a capo but not often.  I have found that a capo is a good option when accompanying a group of trad Irish players, playing the D shape chords (D,G,A) add something extra to the sound.

    I agree with your thoughts about the granting of a patent for the nut placement and the bridge offsets.  But the Anderson tuned using the DT-7 sounds absolutely in tune to my ears.  So much so that my Strat and Tele take a bit of acclimatization after an evening spent murdering songs on the Anderson. 
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Interesting, thanks! I don't disagree that non-equal-temperament can make some chords and keys sound 'better', and I think that ties in with using the 'sweetened' mode on the Peterson as well. To be honest, I actually have my own slightly 'sweetened' tuning which I do by ear, and which to me sounds more in tune for the sort of open-chord things I often like to play by myself. (Maybe I should try patenting it ;).)

    The reason I asked about the capo was that if you do use it a lot - as I do when playing with a couple of singers I work with - then it *cannot* work to use the same tuning offsets, because the nut has effectively moved to a different position so all the relative intervals are now not the same. To make it work without having to constantly re-tune, you need to be as close to equal temperament as possible.

    So to me, the Feiten 'system' is no more than a piece of well-known physics (nut placement) combined with a particular 'sweetened' tuning which works for "guitary" keys and which also people have been doing by ear since guitar playing began - but even then, the closer to perfect your guitar is set up (especially nut height) the less useful it is. Absolutely not patentable - since pre-existing uses and 'obvious' concepts are specifically inadmissable for patents, so he was granted it incorrectly - and certainly not the answer to the "tuning problems" most players complain about.

    The main reason your Anderson sounds so in tune is because it's so well-made :). A well-cut nut, even neck and perfect fretting are the real answer.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Paul_CPaul_C Frets: 7671
    without wanting to get too involved in this - the Buzz Feiten system has three parts - the nut movement, different intonation and a difference in tuning.

    I have retro-fitted a number of guitars (including one for Steve Rothery) with BF nuts and all of the customers were pleased by the change.


    "I'll probably be in the bins at Newport Pagnell services."  fretmeister
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  • My ltd has a compensated nut, and is wonderfully in tune all the way up the neck.  

    Well, it was until I shoved heavy strings on it and dropped it to drop C.  I tweaked the saddles and it's back in tune - but no better than an average, well set up guitar is.  This isn't helped by the fact it could do with a fret level and polish, though.  I feel, if I paid a tech, I could have the action lower still with less buzz, but it's just not worth the cost and it still plays and sounds great.  

    It's still easily giggable (still intonates better than most off the shelf guitars I've tried...) and recordable in all positions though, with as much gain as you like (which really makes a minor out of tune thing sound horrendous) so I think, while there are improvements, ultimately, you take the rough with the smooth on a guitar.  
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  • SkippedSkipped Frets: 2371
    edited February 2014
    Have seen a couple of guitars over the years where the owner has casually mentioned that he is going to ditch the wrapover bridge in favour of a Badass bridge or similar (showing my age here) , because the intonation it out "on the cowboy chords".
    If you get the nut checked and then cut properly if needed, that does not mean that your intonation now  is perfect . It may not be (because of the bridge). But you may have sorted the problem which was annoying the hell out of you .

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12646
    Have a wisdom there, buddy.

    And the Badass style bridges really rob a Junior of its massive tone, IMHO. 
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    I looked up Badass bridge and found this site: http://www.guitarfetish.com/Chrome-Badass-Style-Intonatable-wraparound-bridge_p_153.html

    Looks pretty decent to me, is intonable.  What is there not to like about it?
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    impmann said:
    Have a wisdom there, buddy.

    And the Badass style bridges really rob a Junior of its massive tone, IMHO. 
    Having had a '57 Junior with a Badass and the original bridge, I completely disagree. The Badass sounded huge, the original Gibson bridge thinner and more midrangy. The fact that the perfect action set-up was with the Badass tight down onto the body might have had something to do with it though.

    Rocker said:
    I looked up Badass bridge and found this site: http://www.guitarfetish.com/Chrome-Badass-Style-Intonatable-wraparound-bridge_p_153.html

    Looks pretty decent to me, is intonable.  What is there not to like about it?
    There's a nice touch you can do to these as well - when you've got the overall position right with the two big screws, measure the gap between the screw heads and the back of the bridge, then cut that much off the screw thread, so you can crank the heads up tight against the back of the bridge. Super neat and means it will never creep out of position.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    Rocker said:
    I have used a fair number of Elexir string sets over the past fifteen years plus and I never had a duff string.  But then I don't gig and the guitars remain in the music room almost all the time.  Elexirs are not everyone's cup of tea and they are expensive but they last longer.
    I've actually just gone back from Elixirs to EB, just for a change. You do notice a difference, I think the EB do sound a bit more alive, but as you say they just don't last as long. (Funnily, I've been playing with rocksmith recently and it's very noticeable, especially it's very particular about string bends.) I guess the elixir qc must be tighter since the string is expected to last longer.
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12646
    @ICBM - it probably is more to do with other factors. And it could just be that the one with the Badass is a great one anyway, and would regain definition with the wrap over.

    I've worked on probably 50 or so vintage juniors and specials. The output of the original P90s can vary a lot from 'supercharged Strat' to 'roaring bastard' due to the 50s winding techniques.

    However, having refitted original wrap overs to guitars fitted with Badass bridges on more than a few occasions, I can tell you *every single one* sounded better after the work. You get more airiness in the mids and the string to string definition is better.

    But, as with all things, if you prefer the sound with a Badass then that's cool. There's no right or wrong, really. I guess I just prefer them as originally designed. :-)
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413
    Going back to the compensated nut position that was discussed above, Paul Reed Smith had a patent on this in 1980 (I think) which I guess would now have expired.

    I did have someone with better ears than mine say how "in tune" a PRS of mine sounded.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    impmann said:
    However, having refitted original wrap overs to guitars fitted with Badass bridges on more than a few occasions, I can tell you *every single one* sounded better after the work. You get more airiness in the mids and the string to string definition is better.
    Ah! So actually we do agree… that's exactly what I hear too, but it's the opposite of what I would describe as "massive" tone :).

    To me "massive" = heavy, powerful, thick. That's exactly how the Badass changed the sound, to me - more like a Les Paul Standard. With the stock bridge it was "lighter" - thinner, more midrangy, airy.

    Interestingly I had the same bridge on my '57 Special as well, and the difference wasn't as pronounced there - but it wasn't actually pressing on the top, that guitar had a slightly steeper neck angle. So I think that had something to do with it… although the Special never sounded as beefy as the Junior with either bridge.

    Apart from that most of the wrapover Gibsons I've worked on have had the stock bridge, so I haven't compared that many - but I really dislike the 'ridge' stopbars, they just sound bad to me, even with a wound third - the plain 50s one just sounds more 'musical' somehow even though the intonation can never be precise… and actually changes as you go further up the neck, since the string is being pulled very slightly further round the curve!

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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