Fly Rig 5 into clean amp settings

Blueingreen

Pete Thorn has a recent (and excellent) video demonstrating the FR5.  He says that when inputting into a guitar amp Tech 21 recommend starting with the treble and bass controls on the amp set to zero and the mid control set to max, and agrees he gets best results from those settings.  I've checked the manual and it says:

Also, be aware that most tube amps have a tone stack.When every-

thing is on max, they tend to cut the mid-range. So don't be surprised

to find that the flattest sound is achieved with bass and treble at mini-

mum, and mid at max. Since most tube amp passive tone stacks work in

a similar fashion, we recommend this as a good starting point and adjusting to taste.

This seems a bit skimpy/vague to me - I'm not doubting it's good advice, just that the explanation could be a bit clearer (if there's a mid-cut when everything is dimed it doesn't necessarily follow that bass/treble should be set to zero, and it seems a little counter intuitive, to me at least).

Anyone with more technical nous than me (almost any member of this forum will qualify) care to expand the explanation for this a bit?

I'm thinking of using the FR5 at an upcoming gig where I won't get much chance to experiment with various amp settings so anything that helps me understand this stuff is helpful.

professorben

I'd use your ears. 

What does it matter what number the controls are on if it sounds good? 

bingefeller

i would either EQ your amp to taste and then try to EQ the FR5 to fit around that or......set your amp's EQ to flat and EQ to FR5 to make it sound better. 

I think the EQ your amp to your taste is the better option and this is what I would do. 

fretmeister

There are several amps where 12 noon is not remotely flat.

The Hartke 500 even shows it all in the manual. Bass and treble on zero with the mids up full is flat response. In other words - that is the true sound of the instrument. Bass and treble are thus Boost only and mids are cut only. But because we are used to assuming Noon is flat we make the wrong assumption that each control cuts and boosts.

That's an active EQ.

Some are passive so they only actually cut. It's just that the starting point for the cut has a different starting point per control.

It varies by manufacturer so there is no rule as such, but 90% of amps have a baked in mid cut, and with good reason. Guitars sound shite when amplified flat!

guitarfishbay

Obviously EQ to taste using your ears, but yes flat doesn't mean flat, here's a graph of preamp sections with all settings on 5

EricTheWeary

There's a Matt Schofield video somewhere where he goes through using supplied backline. Essentially quickly set up something neutral then carefully twiddle (technical term)each tone knob with something playing and you should be able to hear the shelving point for each ie the point at which it goes from cut to boost and that is it at it's flattest. 
Of course this takes practice and ten minutes being left in peace and quiet with an amp!
Otherwise some kind of idea of how different amps sound so you know roughly how the Fly Rig will interact. I know there are a million different amps but you tend to see a lot of the same ones and those in family groups - modern Marshall, blackface Fender, AC30ish,etc. In reality unless you get a decent soundcheck there will be a need for some fine adjustments between the first couple of songs. 

professorben

bingefeller said:

i would either EQ your amp to taste and then try to EQ the FR5 to fit around that or......set your amp's EQ to flat and EQ to FR5 to make it sound better. 

I think the EQ your amp to your taste is the better option and this is what I would do. 

If time is short, I'd suggest either/or 
you can chase your tail adjusting both. 

Get a nice balanced clean tone, duller is better than brighter, and set the FlyRig to taste. 

bingefeller

EricTheWeary said:

There's a Matt Schofield video somewhere where he goes through using supplied backline. Essentially quickly set up something neutral then carefully twiddle (technical term)each tone knob with something playing and you should be able to hear the shelving point for each ie the point at which it goes from cut to boost and that is it at it's flattest. 
Of course this takes practice and ten minutes being left in peace and quiet with an amp!
Otherwise some kind of idea of how different amps sound so you know roughly how the Fly Rig will interact. I know there are a million different amps but you tend to see a lot of the same ones and those in family groups - modern Marshall, blackface Fender, AC30ish,etc. In reality unless you get a decent soundcheck there will be a need for some fine adjustments between the first couple of songs. 

Was it something like this here one?

EricTheWeary

bingefeller said:

EricTheWeary said:

There's a Matt Schofield video somewhere where he goes through using supplied backline. Essentially quickly set up something neutral then carefully twiddle (technical term)each tone knob with something playing and you should be able to hear the shelving point for each ie the point at which it goes from cut to boost and that is it at it's flattest. 
Of course this takes practice and ten minutes being left in peace and quiet with an amp!
Otherwise some kind of idea of how different amps sound so you know roughly how the Fly Rig will interact. I know there are a million different amps but you tend to see a lot of the same ones and those in family groups - modern Marshall, blackface Fender, AC30ish,etc. In reality unless you get a decent soundcheck there will be a need for some fine adjustments between the first couple of songs. 

Was it something like this here one?

Yeah, that kind of thing - lot easier to see it on video than to explain! Obviously once you've got that 'flat' tone you can adjust the eq to taste. 

Sassafras

All amps are different. I don't see how you can generalise.

gibsongretschfan

Yup, depends on the amp. Using something like s JCM 900 I set all the eq to zero. Setting it flat doesn't work too well (flat, not noon) and the effects return is awful 

however many valve amps won't pass signal with the eq all the way down 

Blueingreen

Thanks to all.  Looks like no-one agrees with Thorn/Tech 21 on this one!

gibsongretschfan

Blueingreen said:

Thanks to all.  Looks like no-one agrees with Thorn/Tech 21 on this one!

Obviously they are morons  

exocet

The standard Fender / Marshall TMB tonestack does indeed give  "flattest response" with Mid control maxed out and B&T set to minimum. That doesn't mean that it'll sound best at that setting.

mellowsun

Wouldn't it be better to run the fly rig straight into the PA or is that not an option?

exocet

mellowsun said:

Wouldn't it be better to run the fly rig straight into the PA or is that not an option?

I think it has the "Sans amp" module included to in theory could feed a PA direct.

professorben

Cabicular

exocet said:

mellowsun said:

Wouldn't it be better to run the fly rig straight into the PA or is that not an option?

I think it has the "Sans amp" module included to in theory could feed a PA direct.

I've done that in an emergency and it was perfectly acceptable.
I keep one in my bag in case the Helix has an issue

Blueingreen

mellowsun said:

Wouldn't it be better to run the fly rig straight into the PA or is that not an option?

I don't have to use the FR5, I can take an amp and pedals, but it's a jazz/swing gig where I won't be using a big variety of sounds so the simplicity of the FR was appealing.  But most of the band will be reading the dots, rehearsal time will be minimal, and I won't get much chance to experiment with sounds.

I think the whole point of the Bass 0, Treble 0, Mid 10 settings is to give a neutral base so the pre-amp on the Sansamp piggybacks on the amp with the least possible "interference" from the amp's own pre-amp.  I assume that's different from finding the best base tone for a more orthodox pedal - in fact I'd imagine those setting would sound pretty bad if you were just using ordinary pedals.

EricTheWeary

Blueingreen said:

mellowsun said:

Wouldn't it be better to run the fly rig straight into the PA or is that not an option?

I don't have to use the FR5, I can take an amp and pedals, but it's a jazz/swing gig where I won't be using a big variety of sounds so the simplicity of the FR was appealing.  But most of the band will be reading the dots, rehearsal time will be minimal, and I won't get much chance to experiment with sounds.

I think the whole point of the Bass 0, Treble 0, Mid 10 settings is to give a neutral base so the pre-amp on the Sansamp piggybacks on the amp with the least possible "interference" from the amp's own pre-amp.  I assume that's different from finding the best base tone for a more orthodox pedal - in fact I'd imagine those setting would sound pretty bad if you were just using ordinary pedals.

If you look at the video @bingefeller posted that's about finding the flattest tone from which you can then tweak to taste, or use the FR to tweak in this case. 

gibsongretschfan

Blueingreen said:

mellowsun said:

Wouldn't it be better to run the fly rig straight into the PA or is that not an option?

I don't have to use the FR5, I can take an amp and pedals, but it's a jazz/swing gig where I won't be using a big variety of sounds so the simplicity of the FR was appealing.  But most of the band will be reading the dots, rehearsal time will be minimal, and I won't get much chance to experiment with sounds.

I think the whole point of the Bass 0, Treble 0, Mid 10 settings is to give a neutral base so the pre-amp on the Sansamp piggybacks on the amp with the least possible "interference" from the amp's own pre-amp.  I assume that's different from finding the best base tone for a more orthodox pedal - in fact I'd imagine those setting would sound pretty bad if you were just using ordinary pedals.

What are you going to be plugging the FR5 into?