Running Down A (Digital) Dream - (Helix vs FX8 vs Kemper)

octatonic

I'm still using my FX8.

Jonathanthomas83

@Drew_TNBD What was it about the Axe FX you didn't like? Strikes me as something that could do a job for you. 

Wazmeister

octatonic said:

I'm still using my FX8.

It's whatever works for you isn't it mate ?

I did an a/b of the looper between the FX8 and Helix; bearing in mind the Helix is ridiculously short and the FX8 is something like 4 mins...

The FX8 was noticeably clearer than the Helix, tbh. But again, when not comparing, the Helix was good enough 

Drew_TNBD

Jonathanthomas83 said:

@Drew_TNBD What was it about the Axe FX you didn't like? Strikes me as something that could do a job for you. 

Real amps sound better than modeled amps to me and I wasn't prepared to change my entire way of working for the Axe FX - ie; get rid of my cab and go FRFR, or get rid of my amps and go SS poweramp into a 4x12. Every time I tried it, it just didn't sound as good as my amps into the cab.

And the Axe FX II did not work nicely in 4-cable-method with my amps. It was way worse than the Helix is. At which point I had a very expensive home recording box. I tried to make it my main audio interface too, but it couldn't handle midi streams from an electronic drumkit, so that use case was not as good as it should have been either.

And at the time I'd convinced myself that real microphones and my cab sounded better for recording, so I did a whole bunch of recording with my 4x12 and my SM57 at home at the old flat! I never even questioned it to be honest. (In reality I actually think IR's sound better at the moment!)

So the Axe FX became this option I had, but was never really using and every time I did I'd fall into a rabbit hole of trying to cure minor issues with the bass response, and at the end of the day I didn't make much music with it.

TLDR; I'm very nitpicky, don't make much music anyway, am a complete waste of space and over-compensate for that fact by being a dickhead on the internet, and all in all it doesn't really matter what gear I own coz I never use it anyway!!

Jonathanthomas83

Haha, don't be daft. To each their own, mate :-)

That said, I guess Waz's point is that we accept that they may not be as spot on as a real amp, but that's not really the goal.

The latest Fractal FW is incredible and worth trying.

Dominic

Excellent Analogy - so spot on
Your critique is validated by the fact that you have so many options and experience of different amps,modelling tools etc
People are obsessed with this " does it sound the same " yardstick ......No it doesn't 
Does it sound good ? .....Yes it does...........it's just different but in a good way. Porsche and Ferrari are both a fantastic drive but they look different ,sound different and handle in a totally different way ..........still both great but the Porsche is a lot more useable and practical for going down to Tesco ;rather like Helix.
In the real world ,sat in a band mix alongside another guitar,keys,bass,drums,vocals etc it is totally irrelevant in the same way that not even a conductor would notice if the 4th Violin in the strings section was the finest Stradivarius.

Majorscale

Although I have my amp/pedal rig exactly how I want it to be, these Helix threads were giving me GAS. Then I watched this on YouTube, if that is a realistic demo then money has been saved!

octatonic

Wazmeister said:

octatonic said:

I'm still using my FX8.

It's whatever works for you isn't it mate ?

I did an a/b of the looper between the FX8 and Helix; bearing in mind the Helix is ridiculously short and the FX8 is something like 4 mins...

The FX8 was noticeably clearer than the Helix, tbh. But again, when not comparing, the Helix was good enough 

Of course.
I'm pleased you have found something that works for you- I'm sure the Helix is a stellar bit of kit.
I should spend some more time with one, although I don't fancy changing my setup right now.

Funkfingers

Taking the photographic analogy from the OP literally, which is "real", colour negative or Kodachrom?

For the exact same subject matter and lighting conditions, transparency always looks more stimulating than a print from negative. Some viewers will choose the heightened version. Advertisers, in particular.

Back fully on topic. At the King Crimson concert I attended on the last UK tour, Fripp was using modelling stuff and sounded like Fripp. So, at times, did Jakszyk. I cannot recall whether they both use Fractal, both use Kemper or one of each.

ennspek

Could I put my FX8 in the loop of a Helix?!?!?!!

Drew_TNBD

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Haha, don't be daft. To each their own, mate :-)

That said, I guess Waz's point is that we accept that they may not be as spot on as a real amp, but that's not really the goal.

The latest Fractal FW is incredible and worth trying.

Honestly I would like to get another Axe, just to see where it's gone with the detail and quality. But I think between buying a 5150III 100-watter and an Axe FX, I'd still pick the real amp.

dindude

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

Wazmeister

@dindude - cheers mate !

There are so many myths regarding all gear, as we know...

Here's one; you have to have a FRFR speaker to use with modelling, because it IS full frequency and reveals ALL of the nuances of the original amp model !

Not so. My Kemper has proved to sound as good, and as revealing and interesting, with the Zilla 1x12... as with the excellent DXR10.

Likewise, the later sounds ace linked to a preset with NO amp/cab.

I think the secret is to experiment and just have fun.

The Helix LT is wonderful. And I think Ive got 'good' ears, and have been fortunate to try a lot of 'high end' (for what its worth) gear. And its dirt cheap at £849, it really is.

I've got a Helix Full Fat Floor on order from GAK (who I bought the LT from) and Im waiting for new stock. It's killing me mate - Im missing it that much

Wazmeister

ennspek said:

Could I put my FX8 in the loop of a Helix?!?!?!!

Yep, I did it. Overkill, but sounded great !

Cabicular

dindude said:

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

I get put off by being told my own ears and own opinions can't be right because they violate some age old predjudice about analog set ups
Opinions are opinions but at least mine is borne out by having spent a long time gigging and recording both
In a blind test with well set up equipment I guarantee you would be guessing. Gaurantee it.

Vaiai

First day I got my LT I recorded direct to Reaper my Victory, a modelled amp and changed a few IRs and then cabs on both. A few weeks later I listened back to let a mate hear it and I said "Ah you can hear this is the real amp" when the first thing came on - then the real amp DID come on as it was actually the 2nd track.
So you can hear it in a comparison sometimes - but in isolation it's a lot harder. And live or in a mix it's almost impossible.
That moment right there impressed me - and this was day one - no idea how to get the best out of it or how to use IRs well etc

professorben

Drew_TNBD said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

@Drew_TNBD What was it about the Axe FX you didn't like? Strikes me as something that could do a job for you. 

Real amps sound better than modeled amps to me and I wasn't prepared to change my entire way of working for the Axe FX - ie; get rid of my cab and go FRFR, or get rid of my amps and go SS poweramp into a 4x12. Every time I tried it, it just didn't sound as good as my amps into the cab.

And the Axe FX II did not work nicely in 4-cable-method with my amps. It was way worse than the Helix is. At which point I had a very expensive home recording box. I tried to make it my main audio interface too, but it couldn't handle midi streams from an electronic drumkit, so that use case was not as good as it should have been either.

And at the time I'd convinced myself that real microphones and my cab sounded better for recording, so I did a whole bunch of recording with my 4x12 and my SM57 at home at the old flat! I never even questioned it to be honest. (In reality I actually think IR's sound better at the moment!)

So the Axe FX became this option I had, but was never really using and every time I did I'd fall into a rabbit hole of trying to cure minor issues with the bass response, and at the end of the day I didn't make much music with it.

TLDR; I'm very nitpicky, don't make much music anyway, am a complete waste of space and over-compensate for that fact by being a dickhead on the internet, and all in all it doesn't really matter what gear I own coz I never use it anyway!!

Preaching to the choir dude. 

Cabicular

I like my analog gear
and pedals definitely tick my small objects of desire box. Some of them have a unique tone that the modeller hasn't modelled. But that's no different than trying to make a tubescreamer sound like a KOT or a tape delay sound like a DD3
With pedals you can buy what you like. With the digital platform you have what you are given

dindude

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

I get put off by being told my own ears and own opinions can't be right because they violate some age old predjudice about analog set ups
Opinions are opinions but at least mine is borne out by having spent a long time gigging and recording both
In a blind test with well set up equipment I guarantee you would be guessing. Gaurantee it.

Easy tiger! Aren't you doing the exact thing you hate, I.e. Telling me what my ears should believe.

Seriously dude, I don't care how much you gig, I don't rate your opinion so stop trying!

ThePrettyDamned

Wazmeister said:

You see, I understand why people flip FX8/Helix/Kemper quickly...

If you dont delight in tweaking, and have little patience (that'll be me then), the initial sounds can be disappointing. And it can take an eternity to work out unity, which volumes to use, whether to have the pad on or off etc etc etc

It can very quickly descend into a huge rabbit whole. And a frustrating and expensive one at that. 

It was Patrick @Teetonetal ;  who opened my eyes early on; he spoke of the creativity and routing options. I was just concentrating on the sounds.

And here is the liberation - stop comparing digital side by side with the 'real' thing. Hell, it's mind bending to even compare the 'real' thing to the real thing...

Instead, use the Helix/FX8/Kemper to do the exact thing(s) that real pedals CAN'T. And man, when you combine modelling AND real pedals, wowzers...

For me, the whole creative world then just opened up.

This is it really. 

Valve amps and simple effects are all (genuinely) much of a muchness. Yeah, some prefer a Carr to a fender or a Louis to a... Carr, lazy J, whatever, but they all sound pretty similar and do a particular thing. 

Digital can pretty well do that too. But it can also make it sound much bigger, equally as compressed and with a few choice eq, delay, reverb and drive blocks make it do something you'd never manage with a "normal" set up.