Running Down A (Digital) Dream - (Helix vs FX8 vs Kemper)

Cabicular

dindude said:

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

I get put off by being told my own ears and own opinions can't be right because they violate some age old predjudice about analog set ups
Opinions are opinions but at least mine is borne out by having spent a long time gigging and recording both
In a blind test with well set up equipment I guarantee you would be guessing. Gaurantee it.

Easy tiger! Aren't you doing the exact thing you hate, I.e. Telling me what my ears should believe.

Seriously dude, I don't care how much you gig, I don't rate your opinion so stop trying!

Wow
What do your ears believe? That's what i don't get with you.
If you were to turn round and say. I've spent X amount of time with a couple of modellers and it doesn't sound as good as my analog rig then that would be it. Job done.
I have done that so thats my opinion sorted. Nothing to do with how much I gig or anything else. Just the open mindedness to try something and make a decision AFTER the fact.
If that has happened and I've missed it then I apologise.

guitarfishbay

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

I get put off by being told my own ears and own opinions can't be right because they violate some age old predjudice about analog set ups
Opinions are opinions but at least mine is borne out by having spent a long time gigging and recording both
In a blind test with well set up equipment I guarantee you would be guessing. Gaurantee it.

Easy tiger! Aren't you doing the exact thing you hate, I.e. Telling me what my ears should believe.

Seriously dude, I don't care how much you gig, I don't rate your opinion so stop trying!

Wow

Well, you have the gear to do the test for @dindude if we want to put this argument to bed.

Me and @Drew_TNBD did a test recently and came to the conclusion for high gain amp tones the real amp was still a bit better. It was close enough to not bother me in the context of the advantages digital does have, but I think since Drew has both digital and analogue recording setups it makes sense for him to use his amp unless he wants a tone it can't do but the digital unit can.

Cabicular

guitarfishbay said:

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

I get put off by being told my own ears and own opinions can't be right because they violate some age old predjudice about analog set ups
Opinions are opinions but at least mine is borne out by having spent a long time gigging and recording both
In a blind test with well set up equipment I guarantee you would be guessing. Gaurantee it.

Easy tiger! Aren't you doing the exact thing you hate, I.e. Telling me what my ears should believe.

Seriously dude, I don't care how much you gig, I don't rate your opinion so stop trying!

Wow

Well, you have the gear to do the test for @dindude if we want to put this argument to bed.

Me and @Drew_TNBD did a test recently and came to the conclusion for high gain amp tones the real amp was still a bit better. It was close enough to not bother me in the context of the advantages digital does have, but I think since Drew has both digital and analogue recording setups it makes sense for him to use his amp unless he wants a tone it can't do but the digital unit can.

I'm really not trying to be preachy. I don't get commission for every modeller sold . If people prefer gear A over gear B then thats totally down to preference.But I'd like to know out of curiosity, how they came to the conclusion.
I'm definitely not saying I'm right and others are wrong. (apart from whats right for me)

Drew_TNBD

Yeah I was going to bring that up. I think what sort of scuppered our test @guitarfishbay is that we are after specfic high-gain tones, which aren't to everyone's tastes.

But even now I listen back to that test and if I turn around and listen to it blindly, I end up picking the Helix and Axe FX II half the time. Which makes sense really, because the real amp has less recordings in the set. But when I'm not looking, I struggle to affirmatively say "real amps are better" - which is kind of cool really.

In truth, I've never had the amp modelling holy-grail. When I did my tests oh so long ago, I tried a Marshall Valvestate poweramp into a 4x12 cab. I didn't like it. Even though when I did the same tests with @Clarky at the studio, I really liked it! Go figure.

But I've never owned a Matrix SS amp. I've never owned a standalone tube poweramp either. I've never owned any of the FRFR solutions that people use, so don't have much experience there either.

What I can say is when I use the Helix preamp's into the return of my 50-watt 5150III, it does not sound bad. It sounds quite good. But I've never done it in a band context, so I don't know how it would suit that situation.

Fundamentally - I have enough problems with my analog rig!! I love gear and I love music tech. I could easily swap amps every week and love it. I have to reign that temptation in quite a lot of the time.

Even now I am looking down at my pedals thinking 'I could sell all these and get some Strymon's again!' - because I'm a fucking idiot who loves spending all his money on toys that don't improve my musical ambitions one iota!!

dindude

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Cabicular said:

dindude said:

Kudos to you Waz for stating flat out that your preferred choice doesn't sound like the real thing, or even as good as the other digital options. I totally get that the creativity it allows outways the last % of tone.

I get put off by the digital crowd when they try to convince you they sound just like your anolog set up.

I like to think I'm a tweaker, until I start going down that rabbit hole and then hate it. What inspires me personally is not limitless options, but getting the best out of well chosen simplicity and ultimately having the very best tone I can. Great tone is more inspiring to me personally than options.

Each to there own and all, and I haven't ruled out owning a Helix LT at some point in the near future.

I get put off by being told my own ears and own opinions can't be right because they violate some age old predjudice about analog set ups
Opinions are opinions but at least mine is borne out by having spent a long time gigging and recording both
In a blind test with well set up equipment I guarantee you would be guessing. Gaurantee it.

Easy tiger! Aren't you doing the exact thing you hate, I.e. Telling me what my ears should believe.

Seriously dude, I don't care how much you gig, I don't rate your opinion so stop trying!

Wow
What do your ears believe? That's what i don't get with you.
If you were to turn round and say. I've spent X amount of time with a couple of modellers and it doesn't sound as good as my analog rig then that would be it. Job done.
I have done that so thats my opinion sorted. Nothing to do with how much I gig or anything else. Just the open mindedness to try something and make a decision AFTER the fact.
If that has happened and I've missed it then I apologise.

Look, apologies for being rude, this is where I come from...

I'm def a bit of a purist at heart, I'm not going to apogise for that, there was a time when I wouldn't even have a digital delay on my board! (I'm over that now at least) Why? You just have to look at @gassage recent thread of "best ever recorded guitar tones" - there are some absolute belters in there, old and new, pure unadulterated, visceral electric guitar tone, that's what made me pick up the instrument in the first place and that's what electric guitar is still all about for me, that's what excites me.

I've owned countless modellers but only at the lower end - Boss GT100, Digitech GSP1101 etc and whilst I can get some fun sounds out of them they sound nothing like a good amp and pedals, nothing. But I do realise tha game has moved on.

I've played an AxeFX for a decent length on 3 speperate occasions and was underwhelmed, admittedly it was other people's patches, or their interpretation of what I wanted.

I most recently tried Sgear, most say it's at least in par with Helix modelling, albeit much more limited, and thought it generally sounded cack.

There is something about modelling that I like, hence why I might yet have a plunge on an LT, I like the ease of use at all volume levels, I like the flexibility, and being able to get som abstract sounds. And tone wise, they can sound superficially great, by that I mean they have a very satisfying sheen to them, that when plugging back into an analog rig can make it sound a little dry and lacking in depth at first. But, after about half an hour of playing digital gear, my ears hurt, there's a top end shrillness that never goes away, and a hollowness to the sounds. Just my experience. Ultimately, they don't make me want to play guitar, whereas I can lose hours with a good valve amp and half a dozen pedals.

What makes me switch off from your own comments is that you keep on trotting out that they are indistinguishable, which is just nonsense. Maybe close I get, but an LT plugged into a PA by definition is not going to sound and feel the same as a cranked Plexi, it just isn't. 

What I like about Waz's approach is that it recognises the pros and cons of both options, and the choice made within this. I've said it before, but one of my fav guitar moments is Adrian Belew when he was touring with Bowie in the early 90's, he was using Roland processors straight into the desk and his tone was epic as he wasn't trying to recreate a vintage bassman, he was just using the tech to go in a different direction. This I get much more than trying to replicate something that is still readily available and in fact we are Ina golden age of amps and effects.

gibsongretschfan

"S-Gear sounded cack" 

lol

Cabicular

And I also mean no offence but what I'm saying is in my experience of actually trying it .. a Helix cranked Plexi into a PA is largely indistinguishable from a Plexi into a PA (disclaimer) 'AS FAR AS I CAN TELL'
Now without ever trying it yourself, you are flat out telling me I'm either being dishonest or aren't able to tell the difference
The only bit I take issue with is the former. If I am not able to tell the difference then as far as I'm concerned there is no difference.
 Please don't mistake my intentions. I'm not trying to say there is no difference, nor am I trying to convince you that you wouldn't notice a difference
But don't doubt my integrity please,

Roland

Cabicular said:

I'm really not trying to be preachy. I don't get commission for every modeller sold . If people prefer gear A over gear B then thats totally down to preference.But I'd like to know out of curiosity, how they came to the conclusion.

Simple answer. Workflow, effort and availability. For years I used a GT-8 because it allowed me to stop tap dancing: I could change several settings from one button press. One thing I learned from the experience was how much time and effort went into learning to use the tool. It becomes part of your instrument in the same way as an organist uses stops.

When the GT-8 buttons got flaky I researched alternatives. This was before Kemper/Helix/etc. The Fractal Audio gear was streets ahead of anything else in terms of sound quality and workflow. So that's the path I went.

I've said it before. If I had to make the same choice now I'd probably go Helix because the sound quality and workflow are adequate, and there is a growing user community. The community members are, in general, not as experienced and mature as the Fractal community; but as in @Dominic's car analogy, there are some advantages to the family car.

Wazmeister

What I will say is these 'modellers' have come on leaps and bounds...

I was a complete purist; I'm still shocked at my own conversion !!

Drew_TNBD

S-Gear is nowhere near the Helix imho.

dindude

Cabicular said:

And I also mean no offence but what I'm saying is in my experience of actually trying it .. a Helix cranked Plexi into a PA is largely indistinguishable from a Plexi into a PA (disclaimer) 'AS FAR AS I CAN TELL'
Now without ever trying it yourself, you are flat out telling me I'm either being dishonest or aren't able to tell the difference
The only bit I take issue with is the former. If I am not able to tell the difference then as far as I'm concerned there is no difference.
 Please don't mistake my intentions. I'm not trying to say there is no difference, nor am I trying to convince you that you wouldn't notice a difference
But don't doubt my integrity please,

Your ears are your ears, yet most other Helix owners in this thread are saying it doesn't sound spot on, using terms like "good enough" when balanced with all the other benefits.

No way around it, I'll have to get an LT. 

Gassage

Too many buttons for my simple brain.

To me a parameter is a device used to measure a drum roll.

Wazmeister

Gassage said:

Too many buttons for my simple brain.

To me a parameter is a device used to measure a drum roll.

Compared to your rig mate !!???!!?? Youve got to be jokin

guitarfishbay

Yeah I must admit I look at some huge analog rigs and think it looks more effort than it's worth.

To me there's a happy medium where as long as the sound is good enough for me to be happy, and the unit is easy enough to use that I don't need to look up a manual to get from A to B, then I'm happy.

Gassage

Wazmeister said:

Gassage said:

Too many buttons for my simple brain.

To me a parameter is a device used to measure a drum roll.

Compared to your rig mate !!???!!?? Youve got to be jokin

Mine is very simple- stomps in loops.

dindude

Gassage said:

To me a parameter is a device used to measure a drum roll.

And menus belong in restaurants.

Wazmeister

@dindude - Drew doing some interesting stuff here;

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/103773/helix-doing-some-mildly-interesting-stuff#latest

Jonathanthomas83

Wazmeister said:

What I will say is these 'modellers' have come on leaps and bounds...

I was a complete purist; I'm still shocked at my own conversion !!

Yep, this!

Me too. Less that 12 months ago, I put a comment on a thread saying that digital modelling is nowhere near as good as an amp. That was silly and naive. I now am fully fledged and have no analog gear. What a difference a year makes.

BintyTwanger77

I was really blown away with the Kemper when I tried it a couple of days ago. The Matchless clean sounds were unbelievably good, and the Fender profiles were so close to the real thing.

I only got to try a powered rack, which didn't seem to have an effects loop, but I imagine an unpowered head with a couple of good pedals in the FX loop and a decent powered speaker would be an excellent combination.

Been really interesting seeing your move from Fractal to the Helix, @Wazmeister and can see why you did. Setting up a patch on one of them is so simple even I could do it.

Beexter

There is no denying that the Helix HARDWARE interface is the clear class leader but when setting up patches via the computer interface, it seems there is very little to choose between Fractal and Line 6 and I find setting up a preset via computer on the AX8 to be pretty straightforward. Making small adjustments at rehearsal/ gigs is pretty simple once the initial patch has been created.
i don't really have the luxury of creating a patch from scratch at rehearsals- we're paying for play time so I'd feel a bit indulgent if everyone had to wait for me to create a patch from scratch, even using the Helix interface.
What is great about modellers is the ability to easily create sounds that would be difficult to achieve with traditional analogue gear and the convenience of turning up with just an AX8 and a guitar is very liberating. Particularly when it sounds so good too.
Whatever works for you and enables you to enjoy playing is the right answer.