Half Step Modulations?

viz

It is, except unlike normal where you just do 3 major scales, the so-called "D#" (which is actually Eb, because it goes Eb, F, then back to G, which is 3 notes apart, not 4) is actually an Eb Lydian, and the F is F Mixolydian, both of which imply Bb major. That sharpened 4th on the Eb, which is an A note, is also in the scale of G major, the root, so the resolution is even more satisfying than your typical 3 major chords a tone apart ploy.

edit - the above is all assuming the piece is in G major - I didn't know they play it in an off A flat key.

Bellycaster

thisisguitar said:

@Bellycaster - 

The 'since you've been gone' bit

@thisisguitar

That was my initial gut feeling as that part adds magic to that song, although the song is great anyway.

Cheers as well @viz

thisisguitar

@Viz - I assume you worked this out as if the song was in G major (which just confused the hell out of me for a moment). 

So basically he's modulated to a new key up a minor 3rd (play a IV / V progression, going to VI which is I in our previous key). That right?

EDIT - just read your correction @Viz

viz

Well actually no, he's modulated down a major 3rd like you said, but he's not playing Eb Ionian, he's playing Eb Lydian, and is playing the I and the II for the F. You don't have to necessarily always think of Lydian as being the IV of the key a 4th below it - it's a scale in its own right. Forget it's a mode, it's just a scale, so it's the key of that part of the song - Eb Lydian. I only mentioned Bb major so we could easily know the flats (Bb, Eb) for comparison with the sharps of G (F#), so we could appreciate how dissimilar they are (though they do share that A natural).

thisisguitar

Okay, I'm on board with that idea. Would have expected the vocal melody to have highlighted the #4th over the I chord to give the Lydian flavour to things though.

viz

Agree but I suppose there's a good chance he didn't say, "right seeing as we're in Eb Lydian I'd better sing an A natural (or actually a slightly sharp A# as we're transposing up 1.1 semitones)", the whole thing could just be accidental. But isn't that the great thing about interpretation and playing covers? I mean sometimes, shockingly, the composer isn't always the best performer - others can come and dig out even more music from the score than the composer found when he/she wrote it. Not saying that's the case here, but a different singer might slip in an A and enhance the flavour dramatically. Or maybe it's better understated and implied as in the original (anyway the piano hammers the Lydian out)

Kebabkid

Ooh good to hear some Jimmy Barnes there @Bellycaster!

Madness do this quite a bit and it's evident on the choruses of "Our House". I think they do it on the second chorus but if you listen from 3.10, the choruses go back n' forth right up to the end with a half step coming in between 3.17 and 3.26. When we play it we go round a couple of times with the whole pattern. Damn clever band! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwIe_sjKeAY

EricTheWeary

Yes, lots of key changes in Madness, although not having played any of the choons for a bit was struggling to think of the specifics. They do a lot of stuff outside of the diatonic chords and I'm never sure if that means they know nothing about music theory - just threw it out the window -  or know a lot and apply it very cleverly. Their early stuff tends to stick more to trad 3 chord progressions so I'm guessing they learned more as they went.

Anyhoo, half step modulations: I have heard these applied just to 12 bar blues, its a Buddy Guy trick. Typically intro solo in one key and then bam everyone up a semi tone for the next lot of 12 bars.Wonderfully disjointed.Although a car crash waiting to happen if someone in the band forgets.   

Bellycaster

Nice one @Kebabkid and @EricTheWeary

Yes, Our House has a minor 3rd change in each Chorus(except the one going into the middle section. The last chorus plays the melody in 3 keys and like you said, one of them is a half step change, I had to get the guitar out mind you.

I think there would have been some real musical knowledge in that band as I often see Mike Barson quoted as being a classically trained Pianist, so he's not daft.

I like Madness, they did some cracking tunes, I bet they did a lot of stuff similar, I'll be checking it out of curiosity now.

Edit: I don't think I've seen that bit at the beginning before on the street, hilarious, they were "Nutty Boys" especially the bit at the beginning of Baggy Trousers were he runs up to the camera.

Kebabkid

Glad you liked it @Bellycaster. I've been depping on bass for a Madness tribute for the last 4mths and having to get to grips with this stuff and it's turned my head. As a guitarist, the songs, their structure and the bass lines have really grabbed my attention and presented some pleasant challenges with their clever twists and turns.

Bellycaster

Kebabkid said:

Glad you liked it @Bellycaster. I've been depping on bass for a Madness tribute for the last 4mths and having to get to grips with this stuff and it's turned my head. As a guitarist, the songs, their structure and the bass lines have really grabbed my attention and presented some pleasant challenges with their clever twists and turns.

Glad you're enjoying it @Kebabkid. I can't remember if you are gigging with any other bands on Guitar?????

Kebabkid

Bellycaster said:

Kebabkid said:

Glad you liked it @Bellycaster. I've been depping on bass for a Madness tribute for the last 4mths and having to get to grips with this stuff and it's turned my head. As a guitarist, the songs, their structure and the bass lines have really grabbed my attention and presented some pleasant challenges with their clever twists and turns.

Glad you're enjoying it @Kebabkid. I can't remember if you are gigging with any other bands on Guitar?????

I play acoustic gigs occasionally with Mrs.K and another guitarist, but seemed to have found myself on bass for that too. My function band has a gig in July but things are very quiet there and I have a gig with the Squeeze tribute band in May. I've also just found out that Madness lot, Cairo East, have landed a gig at the well-known 100 Club and I've never played there, so I'm pleased about that. I do need a good, rock, funk working band to play what I really like and test my sounds as I feel a bit like a spare part at the moment and I want to be a genuine part of something active.

Bellycaster

Kebabkid said:

Bellycaster said:

Kebabkid said:

Glad you liked it @Bellycaster. I've been depping on bass for a Madness tribute for the last 4mths and having to get to grips with this stuff and it's turned my head. As a guitarist, the songs, their structure and the bass lines have really grabbed my attention and presented some pleasant challenges with their clever twists and turns.

Glad you're enjoying it @Kebabkid. I can't remember if you are gigging with any other bands on Guitar?????

I play acoustic gigs occasionally with Mrs.K and another guitarist, but seemed to have found myself on bass for that too. My function band has a gig in July but things are very quiet there and I have a gig with the Squeeze tribute band in May. I've also just found out that Madness lot, Cairo East, have landed a gig at the well-known 100 Club and I've never played there, so I'm pleased about that. I do need a good, rock, funk working band to play what I really like and test my sounds as I feel a bit like a spare part at the moment and I want to be a genuine part of something active.

Nice one KK. I'm surprised the function band scene is quiet though, I thought one a month might have been the norm. Congrats on the gig at the 100 club, that place has some stories to tell I bet.

You'll have to put the feelers out for a good band to funk out with KK.

I wouldn't worry about being shoved onto Bass duties yet, if your missus gives you a Pipe, a sensible Sweater and some slippers to play gigs in then you'll have to put your foot down ;-)

Kebabkid

Bellycaster said:

Bellycaster said:

I wouldn't worry about being shoved onto Bass duties yet, if your missus gives you a Pipe, a sensible Sweater and some slippers to play gigs in then you'll have to put your foot down ;-)
If it's tax-deductable, she will!! Pm'd you J @Bellycaster