Difficulty getting levels right at rehearsal

fastonebaz

My band is standard 5 piece rock covers band. Each week at rehearsal we spend a bit  of time  tinkering with levels and then start working through our set.  But our rhythm and bass guitarists keep adjusting their volume essentially out doing one another to the point where it ends up just too much noise and i can't hear my own solos and the drummer cant work out where we are etc etc.  I've tried telling them but it's the same each week.  Obviously the thing we should be doing is ate the levels at the start and DON'T TOUCH THEM. But they don't seem capable of realising this concept. 

The room layout is square with drums in corner and amps dotted around the room but all facing the same direction (audience). But it just end up sounding like a noisy mush.

Anyone got any advice for how to set and stick to a good balanced sound in rehearsal? 

Also do many of you find rehearsal room sound is rubbish compared to a gig sound? 

ESBlonde

Make one of them responsible for the vocal mix. If the singer can't hear to his/her satisfaction it's thier problem to sort it! They either get the message or they are excess baggage.
Small rooms don't help but rehearsing at gigging volumes is unhelpful when you are arranging and practicing. It also does you ears no good long term!
In a large 8 Piece soul band we had we learned to rehearse at low volume with practice amps so we could hear all the harmonies and errors, worked a treat. Being able to balance the band is a key skill, when mixing live sound the good sounding bands were already balanced on stage and getting that out front didn't mean heavy compensation in other areas, the novice bands sounded shyte on stage and mixing them was harder and rarely gave good results out front.

TheBigDipper

For band practices where you're jamming, writing or working on arrangements, dynamics and timing?

What works for me is...  get the drummer to play normally. Set the vocal levels so they can be heard clearly over the drumming. Add the other instruments one at a time. If there are two instruments competing for the same audio frequencies, use tone settings to separate them, never volume. 

+1 for practice amps rather than stage amps to keep the volume down. You can have a different session using your stage amps and a stage layout when you're intending to practice like it's a performance.

Ossyrocks

The band I'm in rehearse at very quiet levels, I mean to the point where I could sing backing vocals, albeit quite loudly, without a microphone. It's tough to get used to at first, but it reveals much more of what we are all doing, including the mistakes, which would be masked by playing at gig levels. We do have to use an electronic kit for this though as an acoustic kit would raise the bar too high.

Perhaps suggest you take this approach, it's the opposite of what you are doing now, and it may well reveal all kinds of things you hadn't heard before.

It's also great to get out on gigs and unleash the band at gig volumes, which is a welcome change from rehearsals.

Another plus is that it doesn't damage your hearing.

Rob.

RocknRollDave

Playing in a smallish, closed room will definitely affect the sound compared to playing in the wider room of a venue.
Not sure I have ever rehearsed anywhere that actually sounded good, best you can do is keep the volume down and make do.

Maybe it would be good to encourage them to work on their EQ rather than volume, so that the bass and rhythm aren't competing over the same frequencies so much and thus don't need volume to overcome each other.

RocknRollDave

Only other thing I can suggest is that you take charge of the sound and repeatedly reinforce the point. "Nope, we've gone up in volume again, we need to come down a bit". They'll get fed up of the nagging and eventually learn the best way forward is to not get too loud in the first place.

octatonic

TheBigDipper said:

For band practices where you're jamming, writing or working on arrangements, dynamics and timing?

What works for me is...  get the drummer to play normally. Set the vocal levels so they can be heard clearly over the drumming. Add the other instruments one at a time. If there are two instruments competing for the same audio frequencies, use tone settings to separate them, never volume. 

+1 for practice amps rather than stage amps to keep the volume down. You can have a different session using your stage amps and a stage layout when you're intending to practice like it's a performance.

This.

One other thing that can help is have the offenders stand at a different place to their amp- i.e. not directly in front of it.
Guitar amps are pretty directional- if you are standing right on top of it then you won't hear yourself as well as if the amp is across the room and pointing at you.

LuttiS

We don't use amps at rehearsal - everything goes into one mixing board and through a couple of PA speakers set on either side of the room. Me, other guitarist an bassist have modelling fx boards for practise. Singer controls the board and is set so all can be heard over drummer.

We also do a silent/headphone practise. Drummer also has electric kit, everything goes into cubase/reaper, he has a multi-out so everyone wears headphones. Guitars/bass goes through biasfx and drums through superior drummer. Signals are mixed in DAW and everyone can set volume loud or quiet as they want.  

Roland

octatonic said:

One other thing that can help is have the offenders stand at a different place to their amp- i.e. not directly in front of it.
Guitar amps are pretty directional- if you are standing right on top of it then you won't hear yourself as well as if the amp is across the room and pointing at you.

You can never hear the bass when you are standing on top of it. Our bass player stands across the room from his amp. If he can't hear well enough to sing harmonies then he's too loud. I point my cabinet sideways, so that I'm hearing reflected sound.

EricTheWeary

Most rehearsal rooms seem to be set up in the round, everything pointing at a nominal central spot. It can be problematic as when you gig you lose your visual cues but for working through arrangements,etc, that would seem pretty normal.
You might think about getting some ear protection. Spend the first 5-10 minutes playing something to warm up and set the levels. 
I'd agree that it can be a PIA and an acoustic drum kit will tend to set the level which everyone else then battles with. 
Or find somewhere to rehearse where you can be loud   I've done rehearsals on the stage of a big social club. Apart from having to bring all the gear it was cheap and spacious and we could play 'as live.'

Danny1969

Rehearsals tend to fuck my ears as there's generally not enough sends to set up ear mixes due to the little desks they put in those places. I've taken to just using the ambient mics in my IEM box and placing it on the floor away from the cymbals and near my amp ...that works for me. 

Most of  the drummers I work with use ear protection ... rightly so I guess ...  but it does tend to make them unaware of how loud they now are to folks with nothing. 

stratman3142

It can help for each player to tilt their amp back so it's pointing more in the direction of their ears. Sometimes the sound of an amp is going past your feet and blowing the head off the guy on the the other side of the room.

ICBM

fastonebaz said:

The room layout is square with drums in corner and amps dotted around the room but all facing the same direction (audience). But it just end up sounding like a noisy mush.

You shouldn't do this, it's almost guaranteed to make it hard to hear everything, especially your own amp - which will result in players turning up when they can't hear themselves.

stratman3142 said:

It can help for each player to tilt their amp back so it's pointing more in the direction of their ears. Sometimes the sound of an amp is going past your feet and blowing the head off the guy on the the other side of the room.

This.

Put the amps around the outside facing inwards. Bass amp down on the floor, guitar amps raised up and/or tilted so they're pointing at the player's own ears or at least waist height.

fastonebaz said:

Also do many of you find rehearsal room sound is rubbish compared to a gig sound? 

I'm assuming you're finding this because at a gig, all the amps are mic'ed and put back through monitors so you can hear them properly?

fastonebaz

Thanks everyone.  It was really interesting reading all the comments and advice.  Some brief anwsers:

- Yes i always use ear protection at rehearsal and gigs
- More often than not the amps aren't mic'd up at gigs on the vocals and kick drum so no monitors really

Following this, I've implemented some changes which include:
- we all face our amps same direction and don't stand in front of them
- keep the rehearsal volume down to just enough to be heard by the drummer
- I told the bass and rhythm guitarist to set their guitar volume on 10, before they set their amp volume during levels, I found they were levelling up with their guitars on around 5 and then just cranking up towards 10 as they started playing (noobs!!!!) jeez.
- I now have a use a boost in my fx loop set to nominally above rhythm volume for lead work and that keeps me happy

cheers

ICBM

fastonebaz said:

I found they were levelling up with their guitars on around 5 and then just cranking up towards 10 as they started playing (noobs!!!!) jeez.

That's not a noob thing, it's an age-old solution to the problem of control-freak soundmen who always want you to play too quietly .

blobb

We used to place a tape recorder in front of us, record something quickly, listen back and then adjust the amp positions to get an even sound on the tape. Then go stand wherever you need to stand to hear your amp. ~No arguments.

Barney

Record a rehearsal then play it back ...it will become really clear who is to loud or not loud enough...sometimes when you rehearse or play the sound is going at leg level plus your ears are away from the sound unless you turn to the speaker.....recording things will make everything become clear both musically and volume wise and may shame people into turning the vol down to get a better mix or even learning parts better iff need be 

fastonebaz

ICBM said:

fastonebaz said:

I found they were levelling up with their guitars on around 5 and then just cranking up towards 10 as they started playing (noobs!!!!) jeez.

That's not a noob thing, it's an age-old solution to the problem of control-freak soundmen who always want you to play too quietly .

Ha yes i do that live too but not in rehearsal when all they're fooling is ourselves.   Trust me they are noobs to this game