Rivera era Fender Super Champ - closest modern equivalent?

Bork

I'm jonesing for the rich harmonic gain offered by the Rivera era Super Champ.  I've thought about Rivera Clubster/Chubster but was wondering if there were any amps out there which get closer or better - preferably with a 12" speaker enclosure?

TheBigDipper

Be careful with some of these. Make sure you know what's in the signal chain. I used to own and gig a Clubster 45 for a few years and loved the clean channel to death but the dirty channel was dull. It had an IC in the gain stage and I didn't really like it. They replaced that IC with another valve in a later version. In the end I found a setting on dirty that was a nice crunch rhythm and used pedals through clean for everything else. 

Nearly everything else else about the amp was pretty good. I only sold it because I fancied a change. 

ICBM

The Princeton Reverb II is what you're looking for. Although fairly rare they aren't impossible to find and sell for less than a Super Champ usually. It's essentially the same amp but with mid and presence controls, 12" speaker and 2W more power!

In theory you could get fairly close to it by modding a standard Princeton Reverb - the original Super Champ circuit is also based on one (not a Champ) - but it would be a lot of work and would probably cost much more than buying an original Super Champ.

Bork

Yeah - I have the Princeton Reverb II on my radar. Pretty good value in the US but UK versions are getting expensive. Great suggestion though - thanks.

ICBM

I would imagine that the problem with finding a modern amp that does the same type of sound is the unusual way the Super Champ and PRII do it - it's essentially the same as the 70s 'pull distortion' circuit from the Twin, but done right! It uses the reverb drive stage to feed a high-level signal back into the circuit after the reverb - which is why the reverb level also goes down when you switch it on... an accidental result but useful to many players, since it makes the lead sound drier and more cutting even if you've got a fairly high reverb setting for the clean sound.

Bork

I'm really surprised, with all the tweed and blackface clones out there, that this one hasn't been on the radar of many amp makers too.  Especially given the schematic for both the PRII and SC are available on line and there's so much potential for improvement with valve rectifiers,components and speaker choices.

DJH83004

They are not massively different from the later SF Princetons with pull boost either, which was essentially the same reverb driven overdrive as IC was referring to. Would certainly make the basis for one to modify, especially as the cab size is right and they will take a 12" speaker.

Bork

Silverface Princetons are the same price as Super Champs though!  Were there any post Rivera-era amps that might fit the bill?  Models that haven't been recognised to the same degree but still carry some of his legacy?

olafgarten

Quick question @ICBM , are you the guitar tech mentioned on this page? www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps/prii/modifications/relmods/relmods.html

I really like the Princeton Reverb II and I'm not really sure why there hasn't been a reissue. I've only played one once but it sounded amazing. 

Dodge

olafgarten said:

Quick question @ICBM , are you the guitar tech mentioned on this page? www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps/prii/modifications/relmods/relmods.html

I really like the Princeton Reverb II and I'm not really sure why there hasn't been a reissue. I've only played one once but it sounded amazing. 

I quite like them too, but the shared EQ means you get a decent clean sound with a compromised overdrive sound.  The overdrive is a bit marmite anyway, it's Boogie Mark-esque.

The Deluxe Reverb II has dedicated EQ which helps.

RandallFlagg

Have you looked at the Morgan PR5 or PR12?

DJH83004

Ah, miss-understood, thought you were struggling to source a Super Champ, as later model SF Princetons are still out there, but agree they are starting to fetch bigger money. 

Bork

RandallFlagg said:

Have you looked at the Morgan PR5 or PR12?

I haven't!  I will check out youtube clips immediately!  
<EDIT>
OK definitely out of my price range and doesn't have the thick harmonic saturation that I'm looking for.  Think Alan Murphy.

Y'know, the ironic thing is that I can get the sound very easily with a Joyo American Sound pedal - boost mids and highs, max out the drive control and set the voice control to about 2 o'clock.  But it hisses like a Cobham housewife.

ICBM

olafgarten said:

Quick question @ICBM , are you the guitar tech mentioned on this page? www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps/prii/modifications/relmods/relmods.html

I think I was in a former life . 

jackio

I've not played a Champ 2 so take this with a pinch of salt. Cheap salt though if you get it wrong (or my advice is poor ) 
The SuperChamp SXCD (I have V1) is a great amp. I put a weber blue dog (?) in mine and love it. It's 10" though, not that you'd know at gig volumes, or care at home volumes.
I've lent it to my nephew (I have a LSS which does it all) but I wish I still had the SXCD in the house. 
They are super cheap and Ch1 is very good

Bork

Waiting for my post to be approved because it has two images externally referenced...

Bork

OK I've discovered this Madamp kit, the A15Mk2.
https://www.musikding.de/Kit-Madamp-A15Mk2-deluxe

Schematic is here:

Is it a good potential candidate?

Super Champ schematic is here for reference:

veldt666

IMHO, No "Modern"amp will nail the Super Champ Overdrive tone. A few came close, Boogie 22+, Other, "Mark" series combo's, and believe it or not, a Retro toned + slightly modded Sessionette 75.
I still own 2 Super Champs, 1 is still in combo form c/w EV 10, ,(Modded for footswitchable Mid Boost, offering 4 footswitchable tones).
The other, I had rehoused in a Head + 1 X 12 Cab, ( Same mods),which unleashes the true potential in the amp.
Lots of Bass available, which is hindered by going through a 10" driver.
I remember discussing with Paul Rivera, when his rack amps & R series, were getting a lot of attention,, I asked, why didn't he do a, "Rivera" Super Champ, ( In features only, as Fender own the name). He replied, " Been there, done that, & agreed, It was a, Happy accident, the 1 X 10 SC.
I also asked If a valve driven FX loop could be shoe horned into the chassis? No room, but probably using IC's. I didn't bother as it may have altered the core tone a bit.
Look for the real thing, If that's the sound you want.
Good Luck.

Bork

veldt666 said:

IMHO, No "Modern"amp will nail the Super Champ Overdrive tone. A few came close, Boogie 22+, Other, "Mark" series combo's, and believe it or not, a Retro toned + slightly modded Sessionette 75.
Good Luck.

I'm put off getting a super champ because they're expensive, may need servicing after purchase which isn't an option where i am, and the speaker size is compromised. Given previous comments about SC and PRII similarities, have you A/B'd a PRII with your rehoused SC to see how close they are? The Sessionette is a fascinating notion. I really must look into that in more detail.

ICBM

Bork said:

OK I've discovered this Madamp kit, the A15Mk2.
https://www.musikding.de/Kit-Madamp-A15Mk2-deluxe

Is it a good potential candidate?

No. The circuit is completely different.

veldt666

Bork said:

veldt666 said:

IMHO, No "Modern"amp will nail the Super Champ Overdrive tone. A few came close, Boogie 22+, Other, "Mark" series combo's, and believe it or not, a Retro toned + slightly modded Sessionette 75.
Good Luck.

I'm put off getting a super champ because they're expensive, may need servicing after purchase which isn't an option where i am, and the speaker size is compromised. Given previous comments about SC and PRII similarities, have you A/B'd a PRII with your rehoused SC to see how close they are? The Sessionette is a fascinating notion. I really must look into that in more detail.

I did have a modded PRII, But that was prior to me Re housing the SC. No real benefit, by having a mid & presence control, but the Overdrive was  slightly fuller with the 12" speaker, which is what prompted me to re house 1 SC.
SC head into a 2 X 12, or 4 X 12, is massive.