Playing and singing

TheOtherDennis

I can sing a bit, had a couple of lessons, thinking of getting more. I can strum well enough, my guitar teacher is happy with that, so no issues there.

But put them together and boof, it all falls to pieces. Either my singing goes right off or my rhythm completely disappears. Often both, and it's really quite dispiriting. Even I want shut up when I get started, which isn't great for the old self-confidence.

So is it possible to learn to play and sing if I'm currently crap at it?*

I'm not looking to do anything fancy, just simple stuff like Take Me I'm Yours by Squeeze, or Bein' A Dad by Loudon Wainwright, simple chord structures and no vocal pyrotechnics either.

The reason is there's an acoustic folkie night that doesn't stick to folk music at all near me, and they do a singaround which has been pretty good whenever I've dropped in - a real mix of everything from excellence to beginner-ish, and they're equally appreciative of both. I'd quite like to sate my appetite for gigging with a couple of turns at that.

But not if I'm utterly terrible, which I currently am, so I'd like to find out if it's possible to get acceptable first.




*I know someone started a similar thread about this not too long ago, but I'll be buggered if I can find it, and even if I did, I'm sure it was just a collection of observations. Nowt wrong with that, but if i recall correctly, it didn't answer my question.

m_c

There was a recent thread, as I can remember commenting on it, but my searching skills have failed.

Ultimately, it's all down to practise. You have to be really comfortable with the playing, and then work on adding the lyrics. If it's taking 90% of your concentration to play the song, then that only leaves 10% to handle the singing. Start with some simple songs, and work from there.

Steve922

You could count yourself lucky your not a fiddler!  Playing a violin whilst singing is a real bitch!

HAL9000

Certainly possible.

As with everything it becomes easier the more you do it, but at the beginning there is definitely a 'rubbing your tummy whilst patting your head' element to things.

Choose something straightforward  like Tom Petty's Learning to Fly - This has a repeating sequence of  |  F  |  C  |  Am  |  G  | and the vocals aren't too tricky - in fact the vocals only ever happen over the F and C chords.
 


Get the strum going. If you tap your foot it will help you to keep a constant tempo. Try to let it become so that you're pretty much driving in automatic.

Now sing. Sure, it will probably fall apart first time you do it but the key really is persistence.

LuttiS

I always found that it helped when i worked out keywords/key notes, like a certain phrase or word that goes over a certain chord, found it helps to keep the rhythm going.

I also practised by just singing the word "banana" over and over instead of the lyrics. So you play without having to think about the lyrics as you just singing one word (doesn't have to be banana ). 

TheOtherDennis

So it seems just keeping on practicing is the answer. Fair enough.

It's not like the songs I'm picking are difficult rhythmically - the verse on Take Me I'm Yours is Gm, Cm and the chorus is Ebm, Dm and Gm. It's about as simple as it gets. It's singing in tune that's the issue. I can happily sing along with the song and be in tune with Chris Difford, but as soon as I start playing it, I make him sound like Pavarotti.

I'll give it another few goes and hopefully it'll get a bit better.

Thanks for the help, gents.

Rocker

When learning to sing and play guitar, it is a great help if you have another guitarist [playing more or less what you are playing] to fill in the gaps and to get you used to the feeling.  IMHO the vocals are the most important part so the guitar playing needs to be automatic.  

TheOtherDennis

My problem is that each is automatic on its own, but it all goes pear shaped when I try to put them together.

I guess it's about practising, obviously, but I was hoping maybe someone would have some exercises to help me get over the stumbling blocks (like when Justin Thingy suggests that a good way to learn scales is to jump two notes forward, one note back, then two forward, one back etc until you're completely comfortable with where each note should be, that sort of thing).

I'll try the 'banana' idea, see how that goes, and ask my guitar tutor on Monday if he has any techniques that might help.

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

m_c

Now you mention it, I think Justin Sandercoe does have a video with some tips for singing and playing.

m_c

Found it

pintspiller

The more you do the better you get. At the start your strumming is more in time with notes of vocal melody than the actual beat.

I haven't sang in years. But I remember being in awe of the likes of James Dean Bradfield and Geddy Lee and what they could do.

LuttiS

TheOtherDennis said:

I'll try the 'banana' idea, see how that goes, and ask my guitar tutor on Monday if he has any techniques that might help.

Nutritious, delicious and helps you sing and play guitar. 

Guitars, Banana's and you.

axisus

I find playing piano and singing much easier than guitar. Singing plus Bass seems to be hardest.

BigLicks67

TheOtherDennis said

It's not like the songs I'm picking are difficult rhythmically - the verse on Take Me I'm Yours is Gm, Cm and the chorus is Ebm, Dm and Gm. It's about as simple as it gets. It's singing in tune that's the issue. I can happily sing along with the song and be in tune with Chris Difford, but as soon as I start playing it, I make him sound like Pavarotti.

Make sure the key suits your voice, just because Gm is okay for Chris Difford doesn't mean it's the right key for you. Singing along with a record can give a false sense of security as sometimes you are hearing the singer more than yourself. I had a quick go at this song and immediately it felt better for me in FSharp. 

Winny_Pooh

Just play lots of songs. I found it very weird at first, now I rarely think about it. I have been practicing with a metronome lately as my guitar's timing tends to drift after the lyrics at times. 

TheOtherDennis

BigLicks67 said:

TheOtherDennis said

It's not like the songs I'm picking are difficult rhythmically - the verse on Take Me I'm Yours is Gm, Cm and the chorus is Ebm, Dm and Gm. It's about as simple as it gets. It's singing in tune that's the issue. I can happily sing along with the song and be in tune with Chris Difford, but as soon as I start playing it, I make him sound like Pavarotti.

Make sure the key suits your voice, just because Gm is okay for Chris Difford doesn't mean it's the right key for you. Singing along with a record can give a false sense of security as sometimes you are hearing the singer more than yourself. I had a quick go at this song and immediately it felt better for me in FSharp. 

I do know what you mean, and it is good advice - it's why I'm not trying to do any Crowded House songs, much as I love them, cos they're not in my range - but I chose it because according to the singing teacher I went to, I'm a bass, and so is Chris Difford.

I could be wrong, mind...

sekeri

I can not sing and play Betterman from PearlJam at the same time. 

fretmeister

I've fronted bands on guitar and vocals and now I find it automatic. Weirdly I can't do the same if I'm playing bass.

Still - I practice new tunes by concentrating on the guitar part and simply humming the vocal melody. that seems to need less processing that using the actual words. Then the sounds and pitch are in the right place.

Then as I continue I find myself singing the easier words and humming the rest. "Easier words" are those that fall in the same place as a downstroke or a chord change or simply the beginning of a bar.

Difficult words are those with beginnings or strong syllables that do not match with an obvious hand movement. For some of those it might be better to deliver the vocal in a slighty different way to make it match up - either by shortening the vocal, or by lenghthening it, allowing you to concentrate on the guitar element while only holding a single vocal note.

I have no doubt that my teenage obesssion with being James Hetfield made me work very hard on it though.

I find the most difficult tunes are ones where the vocal part has not been written by a guitarist - as the singer clearly couldn't give a flying about where the guitar chords change as he hasn't got to worry about it.

Stuff written by singer / guitarists usually has more synchronised sections, often making them easier to learn.

cj73

pintspiller said:

The more you do the better you get. At the start your strumming is more in time with notes of vocal melody than the actual beat.

I haven't sang in years. But I remember being in awe of the likes of James Dean Bradfield and Geddy Lee and what they could do.

Geddy can sign, play keys AND bass pedals at the same time....it melts my brain when I watch him