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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041


     In an ideal situation you have a perfect performance that you don't need to automate ;)

    Ho ho ho :)
    For reference I jsut finished some drum editing and posted up the results so the guys could look for glitches and the drummer said "fantastic thats my best ever performance".

    There are 1728 drum edits that I made by hand in that track :(
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  •  In an ideal situation you have a perfect performance that you don't need to automate ;)

    Ho ho ho :)
    For reference I jsut finished some drum editing and posted up the results so the guys could look for glitches and the drummer said "fantastic thats my best ever performance".

    There are 1728 drum edits that I made by hand in that track :(
    Time for a new drummer. That is too many edits.
    Guitarist/Drummer; Studio person, Composer, etc etc PM me for recording/tracking/mixing in the North West or via the 'net
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    edited June 2017
    For reference I jsut finished some drum editing and posted up the results so the guys could look for glitches and the drummer said "fantastic thats my best ever performance".

    There are 1728 drum edits that I made by hand in that track
    Time for a new drummer. That is too many edits.

    Have you ever met an amateur metal drummer who plays like a robotic hell machine?

    Even the really good ones would need a lot of edits to grid every shell hit, if you're going for that aesthetic.  If you don't like that aesthetic that's a separate issue, but even shit hot pros who can play as much as they want often get edited. 

    @PolarityMan - not sure if you've listened to the URM interview with Machine - but he discusses working with Chris Adler from Lamb of God... who is for all intents and purposes a shit hot drummer.  He requests his drums get gridded and that all hits cut through... Machine gridded it, and individually normalised every shell hit so he could keep the original hits and maintain the natural variation in tones from the performance.

    I guess now guys seem to be using that SoundRadix drum leveler instead for a similar result
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041
    For reference I jsut finished some drum editing and posted up the results so the guys could look for glitches and the drummer said "fantastic thats my best ever performance".

    There are 1728 drum edits that I made by hand in that track
    Time for a new drummer. That is too many edits.

    Have you ever met an amateur metal drummer who plays like a robotic hell machine?

    Even the really good ones would need a lot of edits to grid every shell hit, if you're going for that aesthetic.  If you don't like that aesthetic that's a separate issue, but even shit hot pros who can play as much as they want often get edited. 

    @PolarityMan - not sure if you've listened to the URM interview with Machine - but he discusses working with Chris Adler from Lamb of God... who is for all intents and purposes a shit hot drummer.  He requests his drums get gridded and that all hits cut through... Machine gridded it, and individually normalised every shell hit so he could keep the original hits and maintain the natural variation in tones from the performance.

    I guess now guys seem to be using that SoundRadix drum leveler instead for a similar result
    Yeah Ive been working through URM stuff. It would prob be quicker with beat detective but the reaper SXS scripts seem pretty useless which is why I had to do it all by hand.

    The other issue is of course that once you move one hit it make the next one sound wrong and before you know it you've had to move most of the whole bar.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 3555
    When I was in 2020 I used a lot of Beat Detective and in general it worked well enough for me. I generally grouped all the drums and edited across all tracks at once. Very quick way of editing 

    In the other mix room though there was a couple of very capable producers who specialised in very heavy material and editing drums to perfection was their thing. Generally when tracking they would only allow the drummer to hit the snare and cymbals, then that would be edited into perfection and the kick drawn in my hand. It could take days to get right and it used to drive me mad just hearing it from the kitchen. Christ I don't miss hearing that at all !
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    PolarityMan said:

    Yeah Ive been working through URM stuff. It would prob be quicker with beat detective but the reaper SXS scripts seem pretty useless which is why I had to do it all by hand.

    The other issue is of course that once you move one hit it make the next one sound wrong and before you know it you've had to move most of the whole bar.
    I do it by hand via slip and cross fade.  I wouldn't trust an automated process for anything complex, plus I'd like to choose whether or not I want to keep the original feel or not.  The one good thing with drums is you can eyeball it more so than any melodic instrument, so you can edit a larger chunk before you need to re-listen to it.

    Anyway with regards to your issue I keep a folder full of originals, muted.  Then on the tracks I'm editing I split by section, so that as necessary I can leave a whole section alone if it doesn't need any work, plus it means I'm only moving the section I'm working on and not the whole track.  If I ever need to A/B I can just listen to the raw timing version to see if it's actually better or not, and can easily copy paste raw timing bars back into the edited version as necessary.


    Danny1969 said:
    When I was in 2020 I used a lot of Beat Detective and in general it worked well enough for me. I generally grouped all the drums and edited across all tracks at once. Very quick way of editing 

    In the other mix room though there was a couple of very capable producers who specialised in very heavy material and editing drums to perfection was their thing. Generally when tracking they would only allow the drummer to hit the snare and cymbals, then that would be edited into perfection and the kick drawn in my hand. It could take days to get right and it used to drive me mad just hearing it from the kitchen. Christ I don't miss hearing that at all !

    Generally it is the kick that causes the issues, and it is also the easiest thing to replace.  When the foot and hand aren't hitting at the same time there's only so much you can do with any time stretch, or cut/slip/fade method before it ruins the transients.  

    Half the time I think it's better to just copy paste a hit from elsewhere if there's no option to replay it.  Or just leave it in every now and then, putting the snare in time as priority.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041
    edited June 2017
    I originally wasnt interested in the plugin in the OP but then I saw their summer sale and changed my mind and now its gone .... boo
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    Waves sales go in cycles.  If you wait long enough pretty much all of their plugins end up cheap again at some point anyway.  It's 4th July soon so I guess it's likely there'll be additional sales put on by some companies then too, Waves has done it in the past
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041
    Cheers, only piqued my interest again because someone mentioned it on URM :)
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041

    Generally it is the kick that causes the issues, and it is also the easiest thing to replace.  When the foot and hand aren't hitting at the same time there's only so much you can do with any time stretch, or cut/slip/fade method before it ruins the transients.  

    Half the time I think it's better to just copy paste a hit from elsewhere if there's no option to replay it.  Or just leave it in every now and then, putting the snare in time as priority.
    A kick / snare flam doesnt bother me unless its a really flammy flam. The most annoying thing is the double bass drum part thats supposed to be this:

    0---0---0---0---

    but looks like this:

    00-----0-0----

    Separating too early double kicks is a PITA without destroying the cymbals.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    edited June 2017
    Generally it is the kick that causes the issues, and it is also the easiest thing to replace.  When the foot and hand aren't hitting at the same time there's only so much you can do with any time stretch, or cut/slip/fade method before it ruins the transients.  

    Half the time I think it's better to just copy paste a hit from elsewhere if there's no option to replay it.  Or just leave it in every now and then, putting the snare in time as priority.
    A kick / snare flam doesnt bother me unless its a really flammy flam. The most annoying thing is the double bass drum part thats supposed to be this:

    0---0---0---0---

    but looks like this:

    00-----0-0----

    Separating too early double kicks is a PITA without destroying the cymbals.

    Yeah that's an argument for using a kick pad instead of a real kick. Would make life a lot easier in this scenario.

    Since I'm assuming you're not going to retrack here's how I'd deal with it.

    Put everything as in time as possible that doesn't mess up cymbals. Then start copy pasting sections where he's played it correctly over the parts he's fucked up. Try to not use a part that's chronologically near where you're replacing if possible, that way nobody is going to notice that the same crash hit happens at 1:30 and 3:45 etc. This is there's repeating patterns to work with.

    If it really can't be fixed, then ungroup the kick, edit the cymbals and other shells to be right, then draw in a MIDI kick. You'll have to highpass the OH, but if the music is heavy and busy enough you can probably get away with it. If you don't hear any original kick bleeding through with all instruments in it won't matter. 

    The reason I'd go for copy paste over just redoing an ungrouped kick from the start is that'll preserve the natural timing difference between hands and feet as it was played. It sounds weird to me if the hands and feet hit in perfect unison, even a really tight drummer has some difference between hand and foot even when they sound dead in. 

    Worst case scenario you'll have to redo it all with samples. 
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041
    There is one section tbat every 1st bar of thr phrase has the same issue on the first 4 hits on all 10 takes :(

    I think i might just trigger samples for just that section.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    So for anyone who bought the plugin, they're doing a deal to upgrade to the full SSL bundle.  It's currently $174.99 if you've got an account at Audio Deluxe.

    https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/audio-plug-ins/waves-ssl-e-channel-upgrade-ssl-4000-collection
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    It seems this is a new tactic from Waves.

    They have cycled multiple $29 dollar plugins recently. Today's is the J37 tape. 
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3439
    It seems this is a new tactic from Waves.

    They have cycled multiple $29 dollar plugins recently. Today's is the J37 tape. 
    Which is a great plugin, one of my favourites on guitars and also mix bus.

    The random pricing and endless sales do make a bit of a mockery of their regular pricing, though.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    Definitely.  

    I think they're kind of stuck in a place where their older plugins are probably too expensive now in the current market, but they don't want to slash the price of their bundles too much further as that'd piss off a lot of people, and also make it harder to justify WUP.

    I do like quite a few Waves Plugins but I've never upgraded my Gold bundle - I just add the extras I like as they go on sale.  A lot of their lower cost bundles don't contain the juicy stuff and Mercury is crazy $$$$'s, even if there are a lot of plugs in it.
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2290
    I'm getting spammed by Waves daily since buying some of their $29 deals.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    Yeah they probably worked out if they rotate each of their plugins on a super low deal they can make more money total.


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  • wave100wave100 Frets: 124
    I've bought a few of their plugs on sale, there's no way I could justify full price...
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  • IMC1980IMC1980 Frets: 17
    edited July 2017
    wave100 said:
    I've bought a few of their plugs on sale, there's no way I could justify full price...
    It's the only way I buy them; they are worth $29, I wouldn't pay full price for any of them. 

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3439
    Puigtec EQ on sale today for $29, I've bought it. For that price it seems like a no-brainer, and I'm curious how it stacks up to my current Pultec VST, Nomad's Pulse-tec.

    I have no idea why anyone would ever pay full price for anything, unless they absolutely *had* to have a particular plug license right there and then - Over the last 24 months I've picked up J37, NLS, DBX160, BSS DBR-402, Renaissance Bass, Trueverb and Supertap, for on average probably 15-20% of the list price. Just by waiting for things to show up in sales.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    edited July 2017
    Cirrus said:
    Puigtec EQ on sale today for $29, I've bought it. For that price it seems like a no-brainer, and I'm curious how it stacks up to my current Pultec VST, Nomad's Pulse-tec.

    I have no idea why anyone would ever pay full price for anything, unless they absolutely *had* to have a particular plug license right there and then - Over the last 24 months I've picked up J37, NLS, DBX160, BSS DBR-402, Renaissance Bass, Trueverb and Supertap, for on average probably 15-20% of the list price. Just by waiting for things to show up in sales.

    There are multiple business models that seem to work right now.

    The subscription model - Slate seem to have gone all in on this, standalone licenses don't seem to be discounted much any more

    The rotational larger discount sales model - which Waves seems to really be going for with these recent low priced offers... requires a larger catalogue of offerings (and I guess Waves' catalogue may generate further money through WUP)

    The less frequent, lesser discount, larger holidays type sales only model - FabFilter etc

    The no sales model - Uhe etc

    Thing is once you've had large discounts it kind of shifts perception of the maximum value of the product...  if people know it recently sold for considerably less they might not buy something and instead wait for a sale.  I definitely see Waves as being seen like that.  Whereas if sales are pretty minor discounts or likely 3 months away and you need it now, you're more likely to pay a higher price.

    Would be very interesting to actually look at how this works out ££$$ wise for companies.  And to see what newer companies manage to make work.. the subscription and larger sale thing seems to work ok for compaines with a bigger catalogue of plugins, but at some point we'll hit saturation point.  I don't post on Gearslutz but I do read it occasionally, some of the reaction to the new dynamic EQ from Sonnox IIRC was regarding the price point... not really sure of how representative GS is of the market as a whole but it does seem like price expectation is as low as ever and probably not likely to recover.


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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    FWIW Waves do subscriptions - but I'm not really sure it's worth it for anything other than short term use, given how cheap it is to buy permanent licenses if you keep your eye on the deals.

    http://www.waves.com/subscriptions
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3439
    It can be frustrating for the end user in that with the BSS 402 compressor, I bought it in the introductory sale thinking if I didn't like it I could sell the license on. As it turns out, it's fine but I've literally never felt compelled to use it among the sea of other more simple compressors in my plugin folder.

    But, any time I think "ah, I might get round to selling that"... I check and it's literally always on sale, so what's the point?

    Yeah, I'd be interested to see the sales figures too. Soundtoys are a good example. They've had some cracking deals in the past with free or pay-what-you-want lite-versions of their plugins, have the occasional cheaper upgrade price offers, but seem to have better maintained the perception of quality and that their bundle is worth the regular price.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6876
    SoundToys kind of have (at least a perception of) uniqueness in their favour.  Quite a few of their plugins don't have a direct counterpart elsewhere, or at least didn't last I checked, - as opposed to something super common like a company focussed on modelling the 'classics' (la2a, 1176 etc).

    Plus the SoundToys bundle is awesome.
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  • spark240spark240 Frets: 872
    IMC1980 said:
    wave100 said:
    I've bought a few of their plugs on sale, there's no way I could justify full price...
    It's the only way I buy them; they are worth $29, I wouldn't pay full price for any of them. 
    I nearly always get these even cheaper at Plug in boutique or one of those other sites.


    Mac Mini i7, 2.3Ghz.
    Presonus Studio One Pro.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041
    FWIW I started out with the free soundtoys stuff last xmas and then upgraded to soundtoys 5 with a discount offer based on just those free plugs, I also just got fab filter on a bundle discount.

    By contrast the only waves plugin i have so far is one of the $29 sale ones so fabfilter and soundtoys are more succesful at getting my money.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3439
    Soundtoys 5 is half price with extra discounts if you have existing individual licenses right now, just as a FYI for those who it might interest. My upgrade price is $145... it's going to be a struggle not to jump on that.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4041
    Cant remember what mine was but it was a similar no brainer.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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