At what point is it ok....

TheOtherDennis · July 2017

...to admit that no matter how you practice, you're just rubbish, really, and always will be?

I've supposedly been playing for 17 years.

I sound like I've been playing for about 17 days.

I started by putting in a shitload of practice and progressed pretty bloody rapidly, but then a combination of heavy work and getting distracted by making and modding meant that the practice tailed off for a good few years. Then I got into a band and practiced a lot more again, for about a year. But then the band sacked me, partly for not being up to scratch on stage (I was so terrified of making mistakes, I just stood there, but not in a dead-cool-John-Entwistle way) and partly cos the other guitarist wanted all the cred for himself (they never replaced me). So I tried and failed to join various other bands, as a guitarist and as a bassist.

During all this time, the practice would come and go as needed, but inbetween being needed, it fell off a cliff, because I felt that I had nothing to practice for.

Now, I have a target - a singaround night that I'd like to do because it's very forgiving, and very inclusive and I don't have to hold the audience entirely to myself, mainly because in truth they're just waiting for their turn.

But despite practicing a lot more than I have in ages, I still think I'm pants. No, I know I'm pants, I can hear it when I try to sing and play, I have no great voice and even the dog leaves the room when I try! Finding time to practice should be easy, but my domestic situation (trying to fit everything around work and caring for a severely disabled wife and running the house and all the other stuff life throws up when it feels like it) mean that energy and motivation can often be low, and I'd sometimes rather just sit there and dream about being better, rather than doing something about it.

I'm now like a kid learning for the first time - I'm in that rut where I can tell I'm not making progress because I don't practice enough, but I don't practice enough because I'm not making progress. I put another thread up about playing and singing, but even after giving it more practice, it's just not clicking. I sound awful.

So, in short, is it ok to take the easy way out and admit that I'm frankly just crap, or is it that I'm kidding myself and what with everything else, I'm really just knackered and need to find some other way of getting my mojo back?

Apologies for the rant, but sometimes one has to howl at the moon occasionally.

usedtobe · July 2017

You sound just like me! We should form a really shit band!

underdog · July 2017

I think first thing to know is you're nowhere near as bad as you think you are, to the average "punter" the fact you can strum open chords to an Oasis/Ed Sheeran/Elvis song is amazing to them.

Also how good is good? I mean there probably thousands of "better" guitarists in the UK than those who are famous and making a living, but those better guitarists are working in Tesco or whatever as their talent to play doesn't mean they can make great music or entertain people.

Bridgehouse · July 2017

What's more important to you as an ambition, being a brilliant all round guitarist, or performing live to a standard you are proud of?

ICBM · July 2017

Become a bass player, then no-one will notice.

It's worked for me!

Bridgehouse · July 2017

^ Me too...

Lestratcaster · July 2017

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Thing is would you rather be amazing at one thing or be good at everything to a decent level, more of an all-rounder? To me a good player must cover the 5 T's, tone, touch, timing, tuning and taste.

Also being a guitar tutor practice is key, but it depends how you're practicing and what you're actually doing. Do you have a set goal in mind? Or you just content to randomly jam for ages?

We also all have our limits. I can't shred sweep picking licks or even play slide guitar, but I know I can be melodic, play in time and have good knowledge of styles.

Trotter · July 2017

So, in short, is it ok to take the easy way out and admit that I'm frankly just crap, or is it that I'm kidding myself and what with everything else, I'm really just knackered and need to find some other way of getting my mojo back?

You know what, it sounds to me like you have a shit tonne on your plate and, naturally, that takes it out of you.

Frustration with playing comes at every ability in my experience. It doesn't matter if you are a beginner or have been playing professionally for years.

one other thing.. is being "crap" a problem if you enjoy it? I guess it depends on your reasons for playing.

From reading your comments I think you know deep down you just have to find your mojo and confidence in yourself.

I don't know you from Adam but i'll have a jam with you anytime dude, no judgement here!

guitars4you · July 2017

Key issue is to focus - be it on a song or a style and work that style with backing tracks - Find a song you can't play and work on it - Do this a few times and you have progress - I only play at home now so don't feel the need to play 'All right now' solo note for note as no one will ever hear me play it - but find any song and do your own version of it - Speed it up - slow it down - Change the feel but make it yours - Even do a novelty tune like Flintstones and jazz it up or think how would Hendrix play it and make it your own - ie just give yourself a purpose

octatonic · July 2017

Musicians almost always underestimate their own competency and overestimate the competency of others.
It goes with the territory.

That said, having an effective practice routine and a good work ethic is all it takes to get you close to a professional level of playing.
You can do this in 2-3 years if you put in the hours.

The biggest mistake I see people making with practice is constantly going over the same sort of stuff, over and over, trying to get it perfect.
You have to be prepared to put in an hour of playing a day, 5-6 days a week.
What you do in that hour will also determine how quickly you progress.
I have a practice routine that I go through for myself that I am always tweaking.
For instance, I used to run scales all the time (for years and years), now I play changes and arpeggios.

A couple of questions.
Can you harmonise the major scale?
Do you know the pentatonic minor in 5 positions?
Can you play it in a variety of keys?
Do you know the major scale and modes in 5 positions?
Can you play those in a variety of keys?

If the answer is no to any of those questions then work on that first.
There are loads of videos on the web that will show you how.
If you don't think you can do it with video then seek out a teacher.

The most important thing is to cultivate the idea that you are a student and you need to study.
We are all music students- even the best of the best.
You will also always be a student- that also goes with the territory.
Get used to that and learn to enjoy it and learn to enjoy the thrill of watching yourself develop over time.

If you aren't prepared to do any of this then yes, maybe find another hobby.

MtB · July 2017

I'm sure there's quite a few of us in the same boat here.
I didn't start playing guitar until I was in my 40s. And since then it's been an up hill struggle to find the time to practice - I have a very busy day job, often travelling around the UK which means that I frequently get home late - and I'm then not really in the mood to pick up the guitar.

The issue for me is there's soooooooo much to learn, that in the end learning just becomes haphazard.

Best thing I ever did though was get into a band - not a gigging one, but one that just practices regularly - a couple of times a month. It does focus the mind. I've accepted that I'm not going to improve significantly until I retire (in 4 years time, hopefully).

None of this, of course stops me from enjoying being a gear hound!

octatonic · July 2017

MtB said:

The issue for me is there's soooooooo much to learn, that in the end learning just becomes haphazard.

Get a teacher.
Seriously, you will save yourself years.

As an illustration- I've been a pro guitarist and I've taught music for more than 20 years.
I wanted to learn drums which I initially did by myself.
In 2 years of doing this I got to an acceptable level of quite basic playing.
18 months ago I started having lessons with a local drum tutor.
Within 3 months I learned more from him, and most importantly the right things at the right time, that I ever could have continuing to do it by myself.

I'm now 18 months into taking lessons and out gigging regularly and recording.
I still have a lot to learn about drumming but I'm fully engaged in it and loving it.

I play drums 1-2 hours a day about 5-6 days a week.
Having structured lessons is a hugely efficient way to learn an instrument if you are prepared to put in the work.

I've said this many times but I will say it again, if folks put in 10% of the time they spend talking about gear then they'd be much, much better musicians.

One final thing- don't be afraid to sack your tutor if it isn't working out.
I've had 4 different drum tutors- it took a while to find someone who I felt was showing me the things I needed to progress.
Teaching is difficult to do well and some guys just aren't very good at it, despite being very good as drummers.
Being able to play well does not mean they can teach well.
Don't sack a tutor because they are making you work though- you are there to work,
Sack the tutor that lets you coast and doesn't challenge you to improve.

Funkfingers · July 2017

In my opinion, the degree of crappiness needs to be quantified. Practicing along with a metronome or a drum machine helps with timing issues. Scale and chord shape exercises help with fingering. Anything else - including note selection - is subjective.

Often, music content that is, technically, "crap" makes for interesting listening. Presentation and attitude can be just as important as hitting the correct notes and riding the groove.

Having identified your limitations, the trick is to deduce what you can do within them. There is not much call for Play Like Ray Davies instructional DVDs. Plenty of us would like to be able to write songs like him.

Lestratcaster · July 2017

octatonic said:

MtB said:

The issue for me is there's soooooooo much to learn, that in the end learning just becomes haphazard.

Get a teacher.
Seriously, you will save yourself years.

As an illustration- I've been a pro guitarist and I've taught music for more than 20 years.
I wanted to learn drums which I initially did by myself.
In 2 years of doing this I got to an acceptable level of quite basic playing.
18 months ago I started having lessons with a local drum tutor.
Within 3 months I learned more from him, and most importantly the right things at the right time, that I ever could have continuing to do it by myself.

I'm not 18 months into taking lessons and out gigging regularly and recording.
I still have a lot to learn about drumming but I'm fully engaged in it and loving it.
I play drums 1-2 hours a day about 5-6 days a week.
Having structured lessons is a hugely efficient way to learn an instrument if you are prepared to put in the work.

I've said this many times but I will say it again, if folks put in 10% of the time they spend talking about gear then they'd be much, much better musicians.

One final thing- don't be afraid to sack your tutor if it isn't working out.
I've had 4 different drum tutors- it took a while to find someone who I felt was showing me the things I needed to progress.
Teaching is difficult to do well and some guys just aren't very good at it, despite being very good as drummers.
Being able to play well does not mean they can teach well.
Don't sack a tutor because they are making you work though- you are there to work,
Sack the tutor that lets you coast and doesn't challenge you to improve.

Yep, I might sound biased because I am one but its the sure-fire way to progress quicker. I only wish I'd sought a good tutor from day 1 instead struggled for years not knowing what I was doing, having poor timing and not being adept on the fretboard. Eventually I spent 4 years at a music institute and my playing transformed from someone who dicked about with open chords with the occasional barre to someone who understood the theory side, and knew how to apply, not to mention tighter rhythmically and more open stylistically.

Having weekly or even daily feedback was essential for me and having things to work towards was important. I've seen with my own two eyes how easy it is to just "coast along" (as Octatonic mentioned) repeating the same stuff over and over again. With no one pushing you its very hard to motivate yourself, esp with loads of stuff to learn as people have mentioned.
I know for a fact if they didn't have lessons my learners wouldn't be where they are now. I've taken people who haven't played before and within 3 months they look like they been playing for 3 years. All cos they attend the lessons once a week, they practice properly (important) and follow my advice.

paul_c2 · July 2017

In answer to the direct question, I'd say about a year. Also reading the above replies, I agree, get a teacher. Until then your learning is rudderless. And don't worry about "not being as good as ............." or "not being able to play .........." - music is not a meritocracy, if you're playing and enjoying it then its a success.

Flanging_Fred · July 2017

You sound like you are being very hard and unfair on yourself. As you say, you have a great deal of other stuff on your plate to deal with. Sometimes in life you're ahead of the curve, sometimes your behind it. It happens to everyone.

Rather than saying to yourself that you're "crap" or "rubbish" have an honest think about where your musical goalposts lay in relation to your current life situation. Are you being realistic about what you can achieve? @octatonic has great advice above and he's a great player but I know that at the moment I could never achieve what he suggests simply due to other commitments. That means I won't be as good a player as James (not even close) but my aims as a player are far more modest and I'm coming to terms with that. When I have had time and motivation I've learned some new theory or scales or songs or whatever, and taken a step up in knowledge or ability.

Also nowhere is it written that you have to be 'good' at playing guitar. Sometimes the most fun you can have with a guitar can be to grab a banged up old acoustic and bash out a simple 3 chord song and have a bit of a sing along, even if no-one else hears you. Don't beat yourself up, we all have lulls, plateaus and spurts in our playing. It sound like you have a hell of a lot to deal with so don't allow guitar playing add to that weight of responsibility.

Ravenous · July 2017

usedtobe said:

You sound just like me! We should form a really shit band!

"The Dumps"

(Probably been done!)

Chris_J · July 2017

octatonic said:

A couple of questions.
Can you harmonise the major scale?
Do you know the pentatonic minor in 5 positions?
Can you play it in a variety of keys?
Do you know the major scale and modes in 5 positions?
Can you play those in a variety of keys?
.

I can't do that!

Any of it infact!

However, I'm enjoying my guitar more than I have in years. After a lot of years of inactivity a couple years ago I pushed myself to start going to various sessions and open mics. I now play regularly with a great bunch of guys, acoustic nights in the pub or more recently with the full band on electric. I'm writing a little, mostly playing covers, but, above all, I'm having fun.

I'm far from the greatest guitarist, will never know my theory (I just won't), but, that doesn't stop me playing and when I do play I have a few people convinced I'm better than I really am.

Do it cos you enjoy it and don't put too much pressure on yourself.

Funkfingers · July 2017

Ravenous said:
usedtobe said:
You sound just like me! We should form a really shit band!

"The Dumps"
(Probably been done!)

Affirmative. https://dumps.bandcamp.com

There is also The Shit. https://ilovetheshit.bandcamp.com

Could not find anybody using the name The Squitters.

TheOtherDennis · July 2017

Crikey, that escalated quickly!

Thanks for all the replies and comments, genuinely.

So because there are so many excellent points and questions to answer, here, in no particular order (and I apologise if I've missed anyone out), are some answers.

What do I consider 'good'? Good enough that I'm not making people cringe when they hear me. I'm currently trying to learn to sing and play, using a dead simple song like Squeeze's Take Me I'm Yours as a starting point. I can either sing it or play it. When I put them together, my singing goes off. Similarly when I try Loudon Wainwright's Being a Dad, my singing goes way off, or my playing does.

All I really want to do is perform them in a way that I 'get away with it', if you see what I mean. I'm not daft enough to believe that I'll ever be a superstar, not even a bedroom superstar. I just want to go along to the singaround thing and get through a piece passably enough.

I do have a teacher, and he said that from my knowledge and what I could play to him I'm about grade 4 going on grade 5 (whatever that means to those who know) but I can only afford to see him once a fortnight. He is challenging me, and for a while I found him a good reason to practice more than I have been doing, but I seem to be drifting again. It's not that he doesn't challenge me, he does, I just seem to lose interest too quickly these days.

What would I really like to do? If I can't sing and play myself, then be part of an acoustic duo, perhaps, with me playing and someone else doing the singing. I'll happily do all the bits that might require a bit of fiddly stuff - I did that once, and I managed it well enough, but the guy I did it with doesn't have the time now (he got stuck in a messy divorce, had to move house, found himself a new relationship and then went freelance, so he has good excuses), and I don't know how to find someone local to me. There's bound to be someone like me out there, but how do I find them? I've put a couple of ads up on joinmyband, and while they got literally hundreds of views, they got literally no replies (and I am using 'literally' correctly, here).

I do believe I can play along with a band, because I really enjoyed it while I was doing it, and for almost a year the singer, bassist and drummer were perfectly happy to have me along (they told me so) it's just that the other guitarist took against me and because he was better than me, he told them either I got fired or he'd quit, so they fired me.

In answer to the specific questions @octatonic asked, I can do some of them, but not all of them. I can play the major scale in four positions in more than one key, but not the minor. I'm not that bothered about being an improviser or a jazzer, though it might be nice and the knowledge of the theory would doubtless help me in lots more ways than that, but my theory knowledge is patchy. By which I mean I know some stuff surprisingly well, given how many holes there are in between the bits I do know. But even if I wanted to spend 2 hours a day practicing, I simply don't have that much time available.

I do know there's a shitload of stuff to learn, but at the same time as that being intimidating, it's also encouraging, because it means there'll always be something new. I see it as going down through a pyramid from the tip to the base - the further in you go, the more there is around you that you need to know and can discover.

Overall, part of what's upsetting me is that I feel I've gone backwards. 15 years ago, I had a repertoire of fingerstyle pieces I could play pretty well, I was just too scared to play them in public. Now I've got over that fear, mostly, I've forgotten most of those pieces but when I tried to relearn them, several were beyond me!

I'm probably just going through one of my periodic funks, I spose.

Alnico · July 2017

The first step you need to take, if you want to achieve anything, is to stop telling yourself you're shit and you can't do things. I promise you that's the quickest way to being shit and it's highly effective.

octatonic said:

Musicians almost always underestimate their own competency and overestimate the competency of others.
It goes with the territory...............

............The most important thing is to cultivate the idea that you are a student and you need to study.
We are all music students- even the best of the best.
You will also always be a student- that also goes with the territory.
Get used to that and learn to enjoy it and learn to enjoy the thrill of watching yourself develop over time.

If you aren't prepared to do any of this then yes, maybe find another hobby.

As he has many times in this excellent post, @octatonic nails it.
It's all up to you and ultimately what you want to be.
Steve Vai was shit once but he focussed and practised.
Dimebag famously didn't come out of his bedroom for 6 months and did nothing but practice but when he emerged he could play like a demon. Dimebag also rather famously said he didn't worry about a lot of the theory, he just found a style he liked and broke it down to learn it then played it a lot.
Michael Angelo Batio open admits that he practised certain things 1,000 times to get them right
Etc.

Self-belief and perseverance are what that costs and no more. It's not magic, it's just practice.

octatonic said:

I've said this many times but I will say it again, if folks put in 10% of the time they spend talking about gear then they'd be much, much better musicians.

QED.

The second thing you need to get through to yourself is to start playing with some feeling. What you do know how to play, try to focus on playing that well, with some feeling. I'm not amazing at playing my guitar (yet!) but when I play I focus on phrasing a lot and if it doesn't come out right I'll go back, again and again, to get it right.
Fretting a note isn't hard but playing a note clearly with different and meaningful phrasing is. Pick a triad (That's 3 notes from a scale) and play just those three notes, nothing more. Challenge yourself to make something out of it using different phrasing. You'll surprise yourself with what you can get out of that.

MtB said:

The issue for me is there's soooooooo much to learn, that in the end learning just becomes haphazard.

Yes, there is, much like learning how to do a job or in more depth, a career.
If you can learn your trade, the one that pays your bills then you can learn this. There are only so many notes on a fretboard and learning how they fit together isn't *that* hard. A lot of the time its irregularity of practice and lack of focus which means that people who do learn it and understand it, forget it. Those that don#t learn it at all are usually the ones who are telling themselves they can't learn it. Those who learn it and remember it through regular practice are the ones who can play.
It's THAT simple.

Think of it like this, your fretboard is a street map. You've just moved to that place and you don't know your way around.
If you get a job in any kind of delivery or a job that requires you to get from one side of that town/city/county to the other on a daily basis, after a few months you'll know that place well and all the shortcuts, which streets to take after which main roads. You will have learned it to the point that you could stand and talk to someone who's new to the area and direct them, or to a native and discuss the best routes etc.
Your fretboard is no different than that. It's the regularity and focus that made you learn it otherwise you would have got lost the whole time and been late for everything or worse still, never found your way to work or home again.
Learning scales is no different to this, you're just telling yourself you can't do it when it's nowhere near as hard as you think.

Look at this image.......

http://i.imgur.com/q9qrjUf.jpg

If you study one note per day from that and learn it's position in all the different places it exists on the fretboard for two weeks when you come to learning which notes make up what scale it will all fall into place a whole lot easier.
Are you prepared to do that? Or do you look at that image and immediately start making excuses as to why you can't do it?

There are only 7 notes before it starts again!

I bet you can play a scale you just don't realise it.
Take any open string, that's your first note and you're only going to go as high as the 12th fret because everything after that is just a repeat of what you're about to do, but an octave higher.

So:
Open string
Fret 2
Fret 4
Fret 5
Fret 7
Fret9
Fret 11
Fret 12 (The octave note above whatever the open string was).

That's the Major scale!

So now pick the note on the Bottom E string that corresponds to the open string you played, the easiest one to start with is A and that's Fret 5 on the Bottom string.
From there, comparing regularly to the scale you just learned on the open 5th string (A string), find that scale in a box pattern going from the bottom string to the top string.

I guarantee 50% of those who are struggling aren't even reading this anymore.
If you are, there's something for you to practice that is easy to understand and will boost your confidence no end.
When you can play it, practice playing it with some feeling.
Once you can do that when you reach the top note of that scale on the top string, which frets above that (It'll be the 5th fret because that's A on the top E string.........The top E string is the same note as the bottom E string and you started there on fret 5 so you'll finish on Fret 5 on the top E string........See, things fit together!),.....which frets above fret 5 on the top E string keep that scale going? You'll hear if they don't work it'll sound like shit.
When you find your way a few frets up around fret 7 - 9 you'll notice that the root note isn't on the top E string anymore, it's on the B string at fret 10 (look at the diagram). So *find* the notes that fit the A major scale by using your ears and then write down on some paper which notes you just played. Look at the notes that should go in the A major scale and surprise, surprise.....there they are.
You can google any scale, anytime
"A major scale for guitar"
etc.

If you can do this, you can spend 2-3 hours a day doing this and getting it right, burning it into your brain and then learning how to phrase it right for about a few weeks before moving on.
Just pick a new scale.
Then repeat this process, it's all on Google let along YT videos.

Or keep on logging in here and arguing the toss about transients and which OD pedal is better or Who's a Cunt etc and ignore it. Only YOU can do this and only YOU can learn how to play,.......or not.

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