At what point is it ok....

Alnico

.............One final thing before I stop banging on.
If you can learn all this stuff but your problem is more about getting your fingers to work more fluidly, there are exercises and routines you can do to massively help that.
The best one and one I use daily is this.

On the bottom E string, play
Fret 1
Fret 2
Fret 3
Fret 4

Then move up to the 5th A string and do the same
Then the 4th D string
Then the 3rd G string
Then the 2nd B string
Then the top E string

Use all 4 fingers on your left/right hand (Depending on left or right handed guitarist) so your index finger covers Fret 1, your middle finger Fret 2, your ring finger Fret 3 and your little finger Fret 4.

Now go back down that run to where you started.
It doesn't sound nice, it's not supposed to it's just an exercise to get your fingers in shape and moving.

When you can do that, move everything up 1 fret so:

Fret 2
Fret 3
Fret 4
Fret 5

Up and then back down.

Go all the way to starting on Fret12

Now come all the way back down.
Do that whole thing once a day and after a week you'll see a MASSIVE improvement in how dextrous your fingers are.

You've probably been doing it all using downstrokes with your pick.
Now, after a week or two of doing it and/or when you can do it without making a mistake (Probably a month or so), try doing it using alternate picking (Up/Down) so on each string there are 4 notes and you'll play
Down/Up
Down/Up
.......per string.

Now repeat the whole thing using alternate picking and you're training both hands to work in sync.

None of what I've typed here is complicated to understand or difficult to actually do but if you do everything I've just said, you'' find yourself hungry to learn more and MUCH more competent as a player.

Enjoy.

......Or don't and don't do any of it.
It's YOUR choice.

Rabs

Hmmm.. 

I feel the same way about my playing..  Well my lead playing anyway.. I took to rhythm playing pretty easy so am quite confident with that..  But my lead playing sucks...  And when I say that I mean im nowhere near as good as I should be..

I have wondered myself what has stopped me and I think its just a physical limitation with my fingers...  I cant seem to get them to move in the right way.. Like say im playing a pentatonic scale, I kind of stutter between strings and it just never sounds like a smooth transition.. Ive tried lessons, that didn't help... ive looked in to techniques like alternate picking and three note per string scales (cos im not very good with my pinkie) and nothing seems to have helped.. I still sound like I always do. Plus im a by ear player so never really learn things properly which probably doesn't help.

And as mentioned.. People who cant play always tell me im good..  But I have ears.. I know good lead playing when I hear it and I don't hear it coming from me...  The thing is im not saying I cant play.. I just never quite crossed that barrier where I go from ok too  Ohhhhh that's tasty....  Ive kind of come to terms with it now..  Been playing on and off since I was 11 and am now in my early 40s.. Ive been in bands, done gigs and a few recording sessions so its not like I never did anything but I cant see things changing now and im ok with it..  I haven't been in a band for 20 years, I don't play out (even though id kind of like too) so it is what it is    I guess if I had been in a band longer or jammed more regularly the motivation to get better and play more would have been there. But it wasn't and isn't.

Id say one of the main points of playing is to have fun and at least I can say  I do that..... Technical ability should be secondary to that I think.

mike_l

Get a book/CD pack (appropriate to what you want to play) and stick with it. This will give you the basic techniques that are appropriate to your music.
Learn your scales.
It'll take a little while, but it is doable.

Incidentally, OP, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I took lessons for a couple of years, which was handy, but my teacher kept on doing theory, and not focusing on techniques.

shaunm

My playing is a bit shit compared to many. Luckily I don't care for competitions I just turn up loud and make a racket. 

My top tip: play with others. Nothing improves you more

axisus

I think I'm embarrassingly bad for 37 years with guitars. Zero theory knowledge, poor improv with only one scale and I don't even know what it is. I've learned 4 songs .... Ever. Only remember 2 of them. However, put a backing track on and I can noodle in a way that will impress any non-guitarist, and I have a bunch of Christian worship songs that I worked out instrumental arrangements for - not the sort of thing you can play down the pub.

octatonic

TheOtherDennis said:

In answer to the specific questions @octatonic asked, I can do some of them, but not all of them. I can play the major scale in four positions in more than one key, but not the minor. I'm not that bothered about being an improviser or a jazzer, though it might be nice and the knowledge of the theory would doubtless help me in lots more ways than that, but my theory knowledge is patchy. By which I mean I know some stuff surprisingly well, given how many holes there are in between the bits I do know. But even if I wanted to spend 2 hours a day practicing, I simply don't have that much time available.

I do know there's a shitload of stuff to learn, but at the same time as that being intimidating, it's also encouraging, because it means there'll always be something new. I see it as going down through a pyramid from the tip to the base - the further in you go, the more there is around you that you need to know and can discover.

Overall, part of what's upsetting me is that I feel I've gone backwards. 15 years ago, I had a repertoire of fingerstyle pieces I could play pretty well, I was just too scared to play them in public. Now I've got over that fear, mostly, I've forgotten most of those pieces but when I tried to relearn them, several were beyond me!

I'm probably just going through one of my periodic funks, I spose.

You are doing well then, because many guitarists don't know much beyond 2 positions of pentatonic.
I reckon if we did a straw poll of the membership here then you'd be in the top quarter in terms of technical knowledge.

If it helps at all I go through periods of not being happy with my playing.
I've also been fired from bands.
This is what being a musician is.
The trick is to find ways to rationalise your way out of it.
I do that through working hard at it.

Thanks to various people in the thread for the compliments.
I've been lucky to be able to spend large periods of my life just playing music.
I spent 10 years working a day job and my playing was terrible during that time- the last thing anyone wants to do after working a day job and commuting is to sit down and practice- I did my best but it was very hard.

If this was a slightly different discussion, one where someone was trying to ask me how to be a pro player then my advice would be 'quit your day job- get a part time job working 4 hours a day and play the rest of the time'.
I did this from 1991 until 1994 and it was essentially when I learned how to practice.
Balancing a day job and family responsibilities is hard though.

My final bit of advice is to take the pressure away.
This is a choice.
Music should be fun, especially for people who are doing it as a hobby.
Try not to compare yourself to people who have the rarified position to be able to spend all of their time playing music.

I like to ride motorcycles- it is basically my hobby.
I'm not a bad rider but I am ridiculously slow compared to Rossi or Marquez.
It isn't a fair comparison though so I don't compare.
I enjoy motorcycling as a distraction from my life.
If I wanted to get good at motorcycling then I'd have had to have started a lot younger and even then I'm too big a guy to be a professional racer.

You don't have to be 'a hack guitarist'- take away the negative labels.
In fact take away all the labels- just play and enjoy it.
Music is enough of a demanding mistress anyway  without putting yourself under more pressure.

Danji

Like other people have said, it has to be fun. Regardless. There's nothing else that's important.

point in fact, every time I've seen Metheny, Julian Lage, and all the musicians that I admire play is that they have the excitement of a 12 year old playing in a punk band in their garage. Fuck the scales, your time, just play what you enjoy first.  The other things will follow

thebreeze

There's some cracking and really generous advice here.  Just explore it all and enjoy the journey.  In a completely contradictory way I think sometimes it's really helpful to forget all the practice, lessons, trying to emulate great players etc. and just to allow yourself (that sometimes very guilty pleasure) of just being you as a guitarist and noodling and playing what YOU like playing, no matter what that is and how simple it might feel.  You will get really good at being you.  I think David Gilmour said that this was his break through - when he stopped trying all the time to sound like other people (because he found he just couldn't do it) and decided to just get good at what he could do.  Worked out pretty well I think.

As has been said, enjoy the sounds you create.

TheOtherDennis

@Alnico - I do get what you're saying, and I do know the major scale. I know what makes the major scale up. I also know and can find all the notes on the fretboard without a map. If that sounds excellent, I didn't say how long it takes to find them without a map. (And btw, my teacher suggested I do something similar to your suggestion. He said take one note a day and find it all over the fretboard. Then keep doing it every day until it goes in. It's gone in, I just can't quite find them like that, if you know what I mean.)

@octatonic, and the others who say something similar - I think that's the problem, I don't find it fun any more, and that's really what I'm asking for, is how to make it fun again because when I look at the things I want to find fun about playing the guitar, it turns out I'm rubbish at them.

So I need to find a way to work at those so that they are fun, and then it'll feel like I'm getting somewhere again.

If you can see what I mean, because when I read that back, I'm not sure it makes sense. I know what I meant, anyway.

UnclePsychosis

Don't beat yourself up---I bet you are way better than you think. 

I'd also be willing to bet that when you're "practicing" you're not, really. Practicing properly is a skill, most people are pretty bad at it. Hopefully your teacher can help you learn how to do it more effectively. 

octatonic

TheOtherDennis said:

@octatonic, and the others who say something similar - I think that's the problem, I don't find it fun any more, and that's really what I'm asking for, is how to make it fun again because when I look at the things I want to find fun about playing the guitar, it turns out I'm rubbish at them.

So I need to find a way to work at those so that they are fun, and then it'll feel like I'm getting somewhere again.

If you can see what I mean, because when I read that back, I'm not sure it makes sense. I know what I meant, anyway.

There are two main ways of dealing with this issue.

1. Take a break and come back to it with renewed vigour.
The risk is that you will never go back to it, which might be fine for you, I really cannot say.

2. Play through the tough times.
Double down, be disciplined and work hard at it and hope that you eventually enjoy it again.
The risk is that you will have a mental breakdown.

I've done both and I am certain that for me the second option is the better one.
The main reason is if you take a break then you will be further behind than you are now.
If you buckle down and play through it then at least you will have the digital skill maintained, even if you don't enjoy it.

I can't say what you should do but I do know that taking a break is best if you have a fixed date in mind.
I don't take breaks- even on holidays I take drum sticks and a practice pad, I sometimes take a guitar.

Finally, consider learning another instrument.
Learning drums really was the best thing I've done for my musicianship.
I'm a better guitarist for it and I have a new skill that means I can drop into most bands and just play.

TheOtherDennis

That last bit of advice is something I've been arguing with myself about for a couple of years now. I've been tempted by learning the piano something shocking, but I keep thinking that all it will do is get in the way of my guitar playing and I'll be further back than I was before.

But then maybe I'd have a better chance of getting in a band again if I was a keyboard player anyway, who knows?

Rabs

 

So I need to find a way to work at those so that they are fun, and then it'll feel like I'm getting somewhere again.

If you can see what I mean, because when I read that back, I'm not sure it makes sense. I know what I meant, anyway.

Well I think this is why a lot of us buy lots of different gear..  A new pedal or amp or even guitar..  Its about experimenting with sound... Finding the things you like, what works with you and your style of playing and what inspires you to be creative. Playing with stuff like delay pedals, phasers, octave pedals and loopers is quite fun..

Playing scales is boring and depressing...   Have more fun with it first, find your sound and then add the frills later.

Also as has been mentioned.. You learn more playing with other people and if you cant (cos I don't really have anyone to play out with) play along to backing tracks or CDs, its a more fun method than siting playing scales to a metronome (a beat to play too is very important in practicing). 

Maybe even take a short brake and come back fresh, that can help.

Ive posted this before but if you haven't seen it, its a great watch and his advice is spot on

Lestratcaster

Yep, if you "take a break" 90% of the time you won't ever get back on it. I've seen this with my students, NO ONE has ever come back after saying "I'm taking a break for 2-3 months..." and I doubt they're even playing anymore. If anything it says "I don't want to play anymore..." as if you were loving playing that much surely you'd want to play MORE? I never understood it personally, I never ever stopped playing since picking it up at 13. Sure I may not have been gigging or may have had a 40 hour a week full-time job to contend with but I always made sure I played for 30 minutes each day as often as I could. There'd be periods I wouldn't be playing well but the bottom line was I was still PLAYING in some shape or form.

The guitar is a tough habit to recapture after being away so long. My learners who came to me after they tried to play or used to play find it so hard to relearn things they already knew. In those years they weren't playing they could have at least retained that information if not, progressed.

There'll be bumpy patches on the road for sure, but if you genuinely love the instrument, don't give up. The rewards are so good.

octatonic

TheOtherDennis said:

That last bit of advice is something I've been arguing with myself about for a couple of years now. I've been tempted by learning the piano something shocking, but I keep thinking that all it will do is get in the way of my guitar playing and I'll be further back than I was before.

But then maybe I'd have a better chance of getting in a band again if I was a keyboard player anyway, who knows?

Keyboard playing in rock bands is pretty simple.
I've played with a bunch of keyboardists- they were always massively more capable than the requirement of the music.

If it is something you want to do then go for it- you could get to gig standard in relatively short order.
I will say though that piano is more work than guitar, and much less forgiving.

The main reason I learned drums is I could never find a drummer who would stick around for that long and all my drummer mates were busy working and getting paid while all the guitarists were scratching around for unpaid gigs.

If you want to be gigging then guitar is the worst instrument to be good at- there are so many guys doing it and rock music is much more forgiving of hack guitar playing.

Drumming is one of those things where it is easy to learn the basics and then you spend the rest of your life trying not to suck.
I love that about it- it is the impossible-to-climb never-ending-mountain.

TheOtherDennis

Hehehe, sounds like I should be learning drums instead.

Unfortunately, I have neighbours, and unlike drums, most electric keyboards have headphone sockets.

neilg

Lestratcaster said:

Yep, if you "take a break" 90% of the time you won't ever get back on it. I've seen this with my students, NO ONE has ever come back after saying "I'm taking a break for 2-3 months..." and I doubt they're even playing anymore. If anything it says "I don't want to play anymore..." as if you were loving playing that much surely you'd want to play MORE? I never understood it personally, I never ever stopped playing since picking it up at 13. Sure I may not have been gigging or may have had a 40 hour a week full-time job to contend with but I always made sure I played for 30 minutes each day as often as I could. There'd be periods I wouldn't be playing well but the bottom line was I was still PLAYING in some shape or form.

The guitar is a tough habit to recapture after being away so long. My learners who came to me after they tried to play or used to play find it so hard to relearn things they already knew. In those years they weren't playing they could have at least retained that information if not, progressed.

There'll be bumpy patches on the road for sure, but if you genuinely love the instrument, don't give up. The rewards are so good.

  I think I must be in the 10%, in over twenty years of playing I've quit for a few years a couple of times but this most recent time I've come back I feel my playing is better than it's ever been, something feels different this time, so much so that I considered looking up one of my old guitar teachers that I'd told I was taking a break for the summer.

Lestratcaster

neilg said:

Lestratcaster said:

Yep, if you "take a break" 90% of the time you won't ever get back on it. I've seen this with my students, NO ONE has ever come back after saying "I'm taking a break for 2-3 months..." and I doubt they're even playing anymore. If anything it says "I don't want to play anymore..." as if you were loving playing that much surely you'd want to play MORE? I never understood it personally, I never ever stopped playing since picking it up at 13. Sure I may not have been gigging or may have had a 40 hour a week full-time job to contend with but I always made sure I played for 30 minutes each day as often as I could. There'd be periods I wouldn't be playing well but the bottom line was I was still PLAYING in some shape or form.

The guitar is a tough habit to recapture after being away so long. My learners who came to me after they tried to play or used to play find it so hard to relearn things they already knew. In those years they weren't playing they could have at least retained that information if not, progressed.

There'll be bumpy patches on the road for sure, but if you genuinely love the instrument, don't give up. The rewards are so good.

  I think I must be in the 10%, in over twenty years of playing I've quit for a few years a couple of times but this most recent time I've come back I feel my playing is better than it's ever been, something feels different this time, so much so that I considered looking up one of my old guitar teachers that I'd told I was taking a break for the summer.

Well done for getting back into it! I wish I had a learner who would come back after taking a break!

neilg

Lestratcaster said:

neilg said:

Lestratcaster said:

Yep, if you "take a break" 90% of the time you won't ever get back on it. I've seen this with my students, NO ONE has ever come back after saying "I'm taking a break for 2-3 months..." and I doubt they're even playing anymore. If anything it says "I don't want to play anymore..." as if you were loving playing that much surely you'd want to play MORE? I never understood it personally, I never ever stopped playing since picking it up at 13. Sure I may not have been gigging or may have had a 40 hour a week full-time job to contend with but I always made sure I played for 30 minutes each day as often as I could. There'd be periods I wouldn't be playing well but the bottom line was I was still PLAYING in some shape or form.

The guitar is a tough habit to recapture after being away so long. My learners who came to me after they tried to play or used to play find it so hard to relearn things they already knew. In those years they weren't playing they could have at least retained that information if not, progressed.

There'll be bumpy patches on the road for sure, but if you genuinely love the instrument, don't give up. The rewards are so good.

  I think I must be in the 10%, in over twenty years of playing I've quit for a few years a couple of times but this most recent time I've come back I feel my playing is better than it's ever been, something feels different this time, so much so that I considered looking up one of my old guitar teachers that I'd told I was taking a break for the summer.

Well done for getting back into it! I wish I had a learner who would come back after taking a break!

I think one thing going for me is that I never fell into the gear trap so whenever I've come back it's always just been about playing the guitar.

underdog

I just spent an hour helping my 15 Year old daughter with her music homework, which was learn chords for a song from grease, that took all of 15 mins, then we spent the next 40mins playing biffy clyro songs, something I've never played before, was great fun.

So maybe find some music you just don't normally play?