Do I need a new guitar tutor?

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RedRabbitRedRabbit Frets: 483
I've been having lessons from the same guy for a good few months now.  He's a nice bloke and can obviously play but he seems to struggle to find things to fill the lessons.

I have a 30 minute lesson every other week and a usual lesson consists of a brief recap of what we did last time, 5 - 10 minutes of trying to decide what to do next and the rest of the lesson looking at what ever he's decided on.

He seems keen to work through songs and will chop and change from lesson to lesson as to what type of material we look at with, as far as I can tell, no real continuity or progression.  The last one he sent me away with was a finger style blues piece that I could play more or less up to tempo by the end of the lesson so I didn't have much to work on at home.  I think it took me a couple of half hour sessions to nail it and as a result there wasn't really much to review the next lesson - in fact there rarely is.  Typically, the review of previous material will consist of him asking if I had any issues with what we were doing last time and then moving on when I tell him it's all fine.

I'd much prefer to focus on theory and technique as I'm quite capable of learning the songs he gives me on my own.  I just don't feel like I'm being pushed at all.  If, for example, I suggest working my picking he'll just tell me there's nothing wrong with my technique so I just need to keep practising scales to a metronome to build up speed - something I've been doing for a while but don't seem to make any progress.

If we look at some theory there'll be no follow up to back up what I've learnt.  For example, we looked at the harmonic minor scale in a lesson a few months ago, learnt a couple of scale shapes, had a brief chat about where it can be used and it's never been mentioned since.

We did briefly discuss the idea of me doing some grades.  He recons I'm around grade 5 or 6 for theory and could get through the performance parts of grade 7 without too much trouble but that he doesn't think pursuing grade 8 is worthwhile as it consists of "playing odd scales over chord changes you'll never encounter in real life".  The subject was then dropped and, again, hasn't been mentioned since.

I guess my issue is the lack of structure and progress.  If I don't have a specific song I'm working on then he really seems to struggle to come up with an idea of what to do and, when he does come up with something, it's usually too easy and/or unrelated to what I want to learn.

Am I approaching lessons in the wrong way though?  Should it be up to me or him to come up with areas to work on?  

I was hoping that after a few lessons he'd assess where I'm up to and have an idea of how to make me "better".  I get that it's up to me, at least in part, to define what "better" means for me but should I really be the one determining how to best get there?

I do wonder if he's more used to teaching kids/beginners and, because of this, that he doesn't really know what to do with a more intermediate student.


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Comments

  • gusman2xgusman2x Frets: 919
    Clearly a new teacher is required. Especially if you want to learn more theory.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Yes, I suggest you find another teacher.
    I would tell your existing teacher that you need to take a break for a couple of months and you will contact him again when you wish to resume.
    You may find that you wish to return to him down the line and this leaves it open.
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  • RedRabbitRedRabbit Frets: 483
    octatonic said:
    Yes, I suggest you find another teacher.
    I would tell your existing teacher that you need to take a break for a couple of months and you will contact him again when you wish to resume.
    You may find that you wish to return to him down the line and this leaves it open.
    Is this just a "there's no point in burning bridges" thing (which I'm completely on board with) or do you think there's some value in his approach that might mean that I'll want to return at some point.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    RedRabbit said:
    octatonic said:
    Yes, I suggest you find another teacher.
    I would tell your existing teacher that you need to take a break for a couple of months and you will contact him again when you wish to resume.
    You may find that you wish to return to him down the line and this leaves it open.
    Is this just a "there's no point in burning bridges" thing (which I'm completely on board with) or do you think there's some value in his approach that might mean that I'll want to return at some point.
    It isn't for me to say but probably more of the former than the latter based on what you've said.

    I only have your report about how he approaches lessons, which I am sure you are correct about but also students sometimes don't understand why a teacher is doing what they are doing until they go somewhere else and then have some data to compare it to.

    But it is also true that a great many players are less good at teaching and teaching can end up a job for people who haven't trained in teaching but are just looking for a way to make a bit of money form their playing.

    And then sometimes it is just a matter of compatibility- it could be that what your teacher is doing is perfect for some students but just not quite right for you.

    So I would just approach it scientifically- have some lessons with another teacher, ideally half a dozen or so and see who you prefer studying with, who you think is teaching you better.

    I've said on the forum that I am studying drums- I went to a few different teachers who were great players before finding the person I have been studying with for the last 18 months.
    No one I saw was a 'bad teacher', although some of them we better at getting their ideas across than others.
    Sometimes it is just a matter of finding someone who presents information in a way that you find it easy to understand and that isn't necessarily a skill, it is sometimes just one of temperament.

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  • VaiaiVaiai Frets: 530
    I didn't read past the first sentence - yes, you need a new teacher. He should have very clear lessons ready and you should have some progression and targets to aim for.
    I then went back and skim read the rest - my opinion is the same :)
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    edited July 2017
    A good teacher will push your boundaries an bad teacher will restrict you.

    It sounds like your teacher isn't a bad teacher, but is in your individual case.

    I had a teacher who insisted on doing theory 3 out of 4 lessons. And learning riffs and bits and pieces. Not that he was a bad teacher, but he kept on trying to push me in directions I didn't want to go (IE jazz). As a result I got good at theory and learning bits of songs, but didn't learn any scale shapes/patterns, or more than basic techniques, but did learn lots of chords I'll never use. 

    If it was me I'd go to another teacher.

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited July 2017
    Teachers should:

    be a teacher not just a guitarist. 

    know about your journey as a guitarist, not treat every lesson as a new thing. 

    have a plan / strategy for your development. 

    write things down in your notebook and follow-up from last lesson's notes. 

    take you through a well-thought-through, structured development path (such as grades, a book, etc). 

    follow a clear practice discipline themselves, and demonstrate it in your lesson - for example using the beginning of the lesson to blitz through some warm-up exercises, scales, inversions or whatever he/she normally does when practising. 




    Our son has a 30-min drumming lesson once a fortnight. His teacher has 70 students, and yet every lesson is really structured and provides goals for the next fortnight which are followed up. The teacher seems to be genuinely interested and comments on where my son has improved or is still stuck on something. That's teaching. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    I'd find it hard to learn anything in 30 minutes once a fortnight. I do hourly lessons only, as I find myself rushing my material to fit it into even 45 minutes, used to do them but scrapped it due to it not being enough time. I know people don't have a great attention span but by the time you've got them through the door, sat down, tuned up and all set you've already eaten into 10 minutes of the lesson. Also the summary at the end plus packing up is another 10 minutes so with a 30 minute lesson it only leaves you 10 minutes of real lesson time.

    Unsurprisingly my weekly students make the most progress. Fortnightly may sound good as you think you have more time to practice but most of mine have forgotten what happened in the lesson by the week they're not here and then have to spend the next lesson repeating the same material. So I try to divert them to weekly to make quicker steady progress.

    Also lessons need to be structured as mentioned above, sounds like this guy you go to just makes them up on the spot and has no lesson planning experience. I spend half my week planning my lessons for my learners so I know exactly what I'm going to be doing in their lesson. Your tutor sounds like he plays great but hasn't a clue how to organise lessons for progression/development. Anyone charging under £30 (esp in London) is likely to be inexperienced in actually teaching and will lose students pretty quickly.

    I have had learners saying "give me stuff I haven't done before and I'll learn songs on my own stuff at home..." which is pointless if I can't see what they've done to give them feedback. Learning new techniques/concepts is cool but useless if you never use it. If I do any theory stuff, e.g modes I'll apply it to a song or a solo, etc etc. One thing always leads to the next, e.g if you're a beginner I need to see you can change chords in 4/4 with a simple strum pattern before you can play a song. This one learner a few years wanted to do sight reading one week, scales the next and then a fast picking song (Good Riddance by Green Day) the next. Where's the correlation between the three? I knew they wouldn't practice anything so it was pointless skipping around unmastered techniques. Unsurprisingly they quit after a few months and I doubt they are still playing.

    Saying you can do things on your own at home is all well and good but someone needs to check on you and give you feedback. After all I can't see what the students are practicing at home, and for what I know they could have practiced it incorrectly, forgotten it all or most likely, they haven't done it at all. My students know that they don't want to pay me to repeat myself every week so they will find the motivation to practice. And a good tutor will ACTUALLY TEACH the student HOW to practice, instead of just giving them hand-written scruffy tab on a piece of paper and sending them away with it.
    Practice is repetition of material to commit to your muscle memory, but it doesn't have to be boring. Make lists, e.g if doing grades and you got 3 scales to learn, break it up into segments, so A major scale x 4, which means play it up and down 4 times til you get it right. Once done, tick it off and move to the next one.

    Grades are really good to give you something to work towards and are well structured. I use the RGT and Rockschool ones the most and they are great for giving you something to show as well. I know exams aren't for everyone but some of my students just get the handbook and work through the material. Then we'll do a little practice test in an informal environment.

    Teachers that make up material lesson by lesson with no real structure usually end up losing students pretty quickly. And as someone said before there's a difference between playing and teaching. My biggest mistake at the beginning was giving people material way too advanced for their level, but after 9 years I've learnt to gauge the material to their ability and its working out so much better. I've retained students longer and have had some great results esp from ones who learnt to play from scratch. The latest started with my Sept 2017 and has come pretty much every single week (even booking in 2 hour sessions for a month or so) and has made rapid progress. He practices every week, listens to my advice and really enjoys it. For people who don't know he's taking lessons he looks as if he's been playing for 5 years.

    Sorry for the long post but I'm just saying from experience what I've done and seen in the past few years.

    Good luck.
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  • RedRabbitRedRabbit Frets: 483
    viz said:
    Teachers should:

    be a teacher not just a guitarist. 

    know about your journey as a guitarist, not treat every lesson as a new thing. 

    have a plan / strategy for your development. 

    write things down in your notebook and follow-up from last lesson's notes. 

    take you through a well-thought-through, structured development path (such as grades, a book, etc). 

    follow a clear practice discipline themselves, and demonstrate it in your lesson - for example using the beginning of the lesson do blitz through some warm-up exercises, scales, inversions or whatever he/she normally does when practising. 




    Our son has a 30-min drumming lesson once a fortnight. His teacher has 70 students, and yet every lesson is really structured and provides goals for the next fortnight which are followed up. The teacher seems to be genuinely interested and comments on where my son has improved or is still stuck on something. That's teaching. 
    That's pretty much what I'm expecting but haven't got from either of the teachers I've had in the past few years.  

    Points 3,4 and 5 are notably absent from the current one as far as I can tell.  The only time he writes anything down is to remind him to send me a pdf or similar.  It's about 50:50 as to whether I ever receive them.
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  • richhrichh Frets: 449
    +1 I agree you need a new teacher.  There is no need to be uncomfortable with it - you can just tell him you're taking a break for a while - as others have said, that leaves the door open in the future and saves any awkwardness. But the reality is that you won't want to go back, especially when you've found the right teacher!
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  • Sounds like you're a better student than most, you deserve a better teacher!
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  • FelineGuitarsFelineGuitars Frets: 11496
    tFB Trader
    Vaiai said:
    I didn't read past the first sentence - yes, you need a new teacher. He should have very clear lessons ready and you should have some progression and targets to aim for.
    I then went back and skim read the rest - my opinion is the same :)
    I think if you have made it clear whatyou are looking for and getting no movement on that then it may be time for a change
    However it may be a question of spelling out what you are looking for (drop him a letter or email) so that you are both 100% clear about the direction to head in .
    It that won't be possible with this teacher then looks further afield, and you'll have a written set of wishes of what you'd like to learn

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  • RedRabbitRedRabbit Frets: 483

    <snipped for ease of reading>

    Sorry for the long post but I'm just saying from experience what I've done and seen in the past few years.

    Good luck.
    Thanks for the insight.

    With regards to my comment about being able to learn things at home, I probably didn't phrase it brilliantly.  A lot of the time when we look at songs it's based on what I'm learning for the covers band I'm in - this is one of his tactics for filling a lesson, he'll ask what the band is working on and we'll look at that.  

    The last one was Crazy Little Thing Called Love.  We (the band) had decided to do it a few days before the lesson and I hadn't got around to learning it yet.  My lesson was then spent looking at the chords (which he got off Ultimate Guitar or similar, not that I have an issue with that) and I could play the rhythm parts along with the record after a brief listen to strumming patterns and following the chord chart.  We then moved onto the solo which I hadn't quite got down by the end of the lesson but had it down after playing through it a few times at home.  

    At no point of going through the song did I encounter something I didn't understand how to do (it's a fairly straight forward song) and he didn't offer any additional insight beyond what was on the chord chart and the tab for the solo.  

    In short, looking at the song with him didn't provide anything extra beyond what I would have got from going through the same process at home and I believe I'm far enough along as a player to be able to tell when I can play something to a reasonable standard.

    So, it isn't that I object to going through songs it's more that the songs we end up looking at are usually well within my comfort zone.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    RedRabbit said:

    <snipped for ease of reading>

    Sorry for the long post but I'm just saying from experience what I've done and seen in the past few years.

    Good luck.
    Thanks for the insight.

    With regards to my comment about being able to learn things at home, I probably didn't phrase it brilliantly.  A lot of the time when we look at songs it's based on what I'm learning for the covers band I'm in - this is one of his tactics for filling a lesson, he'll ask what the band is working on and we'll look at that.  

    The last one was Crazy Little Thing Called Love.  We (the band) had decided to do it a few days before the lesson and I hadn't got around to learning it yet.  My lesson was then spent looking at the chords (which he got off Ultimate Guitar or similar, not that I have an issue with that) and I could play the rhythm parts along with the record after a brief listen to strumming patterns and following the chord chart.  We then moved onto the solo which I hadn't quite got down by the end of the lesson but had it down after playing through it a few times at home.  

    At no point of going through the song did I encounter something I didn't understand how to do (it's a fairly straight forward song) and he didn't offer any additional insight beyond what was on the chord chart and the tab for the solo.  

    In short, looking at the song with him didn't provide anything extra beyond what I would have got from going through the same process at home and I believe I'm far enough along as a player to be able to tell when I can play something to a reasonable standard.

    So, it isn't that I object to going through songs it's more that the songs we end up looking at are usually well within my comfort zone.
    Well then its his responsibility to match your skill level to the songs, maybe different artists/styles, mix it up. I learnt to play a lot of songs I didn't know well or like much but it made me improve. Having said that you'd think playing a song you know the chords to is easy but many people don't get the right voicing or the rhythm right, and it sometimes takes someone else to point that out. Not saying its with everyone but some of mine don't learn the song accurately, but I guess I'm just one of those that like feedback on my playing and want to give feedback to others.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited July 2017
    RedRabbit said:
    Thanks for the insight.

    With regards to my comment about being able to learn things at home, I probably didn't phrase it brilliantly.  A lot of the time when we look at songs it's based on what I'm learning for the covers band I'm in - this is one of his tactics for filling a lesson, he'll ask what the band is working on and we'll look at that.  

    The last one was Crazy Little Thing Called Love.  We (the band) had decided to do it a few days before the lesson and I hadn't got around to learning it yet.  My lesson was then spent looking at the chords (which he got off Ultimate Guitar or similar, not that I have an issue with that) and I could play the rhythm parts along with the record after a brief listen to strumming patterns and following the chord chart.  We then moved onto the solo which I hadn't quite got down by the end of the lesson but had it down after playing through it a few times at home.  

    At no point of going through the song did I encounter something I didn't understand how to do (it's a fairly straight forward song) and he didn't offer any additional insight beyond what was on the chord chart and the tab for the solo.  

    In short, looking at the song with him didn't provide anything extra beyond what I would have got from going through the same process at home and I believe I'm far enough along as a player to be able to tell when I can play something to a reasonable standard.

    So, it isn't that I object to going through songs it's more that the songs we end up looking at are usually well within my comfort zone.
    Say all this to him.^^^

    This is how lessons with my drum teacher (Mike) work:

    3-4 days before the lesson I tell him how I have been going with my playing in the week and give him a song that I'd like to work on.
    We do at least one new song a week- we don't necessarily work on the whole tune, it is drumming so often it is just working out the groove.
    This week it was 'Peg' by Steely Dan, which is a monstrously difficult groove so it is all we would get through in one lesson.

    When I get into the lesson he almost always has a chart ready to go, or can quickly chart it out for me.
    Then we build it up, often taking it one phrase at a time until I can play the groove continuously for 16 bars or so.
    We then do something called 'recycling' which is taking elements of that groove and applying it to different musical situations or it is taking a look at how the drummer probably came up with it.
    In the case of Peg is is all about keeping the downbeat sparse so all the other instruments in a Steely Dan tun have a chance to be heard.

    This might take 40 minutes.
    We also go over any technique questions I might have from the previous week and go through a few things that I might want to talk about.

    Other times I'll go in and say 'just show me something new and useful'- a couple of weeks ago it was Chad Smith style playing that was super swung- how to approach that sort of music and how to steal ideas to incorporate it into your playing.

    I'm not a typical student- firstly I teach as well and I'm an experienced guitarist but I'm hugely motivated to do the work.
    When I started having lessons with him I didn't just walk in and say I want to learn drums- I said "I'm musically trained and I want the most efficient path to becoming a professional drummer. I'll do whatever it takes but I don't want to waste time doing things that won't work."

    I've said that to other teachers and they have sometimes tried to discourage me saying things like 'oh well it is pretty hard so don't set your sights too high because you might only be disappointed'.
    You see some musicians jealously guard their knowledge.
    Some of these musicians teach and you want to avoid them.

    I know it is hard, I know that it is all-consuming but the only things I want from a music tutor are enthusiasm, knowledge and judgement.
    I want to be presented with the right information at the right time, presented in a way that I can understand.

    If you aren't getting that from your music teacher then yes it is time to find someone who can provide it.

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    ^ these are all great points.

    My teacher is stratospherically better than I, so I like to be guided by him. He is taking me through all aspects of jazz from the fundamentals, right through to modern jazz fusion, and I'm loving it.

    What makes it work is that

    a) he's a great teacher (and a great guitarist), and every lesson stretches me till I'm knackered. He's really knowledgeable and very eloquent. He's also a very experienced teacher, so I learn plenty of theory as well as method.

    b) he's genuinely interested in my progress and although our lessons are skype and we don't have a notebook, it only takes a minute for him to get back up to speed with where I am. Also he's 100% devoted to me for the time we spend together, he doesn't hold back or take it easy. 

    c) the goal we are working towards is well defined and he has plenty of structured approaches to getting there. 


    If that's what you want, and maybe your teacher is very possibly perfectly able to give that, perhaps you just need to discuss it with him and clarify your expectations / needs.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Its also good you know what you want to do in the lessons, if I have complete beginners they're never sure what they want to get out the lessons when they first come to me, so its down to me to get them started with the basics and then it builds from there. To be fair a few of the new ones I take on can already play a bit, the usual "I know my open chords and some barre chords....and a scale or two...." but that's about it. So they just want that guiding in the right direction.
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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    Ive been looking for a good tutor for ages, most of the guys ive used seem to just want to jam, no structure and no goal to work towards
    If anyone can recommend someone in the cambridgeshire area im all ears
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    adampeter said:
    Ive been looking for a good tutor for ages, most of the guys ive used seem to just want to jam, no structure and no goal to work towards
    If anyone can recommend someone in the cambridgeshire area im all ears
    If you're interested in Skype lessons I can do lessons online.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited July 2017
    adampeter said:
    Ive been looking for a good tutor for ages, most of the guys ive used seem to just want to jam, no structure and no goal to work towards
    If anyone can recommend someone in the cambridgeshire area im all ears
    Tim Gillett, Dave Carter. Or skype, then the world's your oyster. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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