Will University fees change?

Fretwired

Actually if British kids aren't filling the slots... Then... 

Airbus want local British kids as they are more likely to stay in post for a long period of time (this is based on analysing the current workforce). Immigrants tend to come and work and then leave .. graduates will often relocate for a while and then leave for a better job elsewhere. The management is of the opinion that training local people and giving them the skills and a competitive pay package with the option to work abroad is the way forward. Kids are interested - in many cases the problem are the parents and the schools. We don't value engineers in the UK which is sad as we have some of the best.

Fretwired

Learn more .. if you have kids looking for a well-paid career in engineering. The Stevenage aerospace plant is impressive.

http://company.airbus.com/careers/apprentices-and-pupils.html

Freebird

Funkfingers said:

A long time ago, in a Britain far, far away, the theory was that the costs of a degree would be recouped over a lifetime of high salary income tax returns. 

At the same time, students from other countries receiving education in British institutions were being fleeced for tuition fees or, more likely, their governments were.

The old model was that British graduates would live, work and pay taxes in Britain. Graduates from other countries would depart, benefitting from the reputation of whichever institution they had attended.

The present arrangement, under which fees apply to all students, drives the education industry down the path of financial expediency. They will run the courses that generate the highest income rather than those that might be of interest, use or social benefit. The objective nowadays is self-perpetuating solvency. Education be damned!

A skeptic might argue that one reason for the growth in higher education student numbers is a scam to reduce unemployment statistics. Graduates emerge into a double bind - qualified for jobs that do not exist and considered over-qualified for those jobs that do exist. The nett result of much of this increased education is a generation all the better equipped to express their dissatisfaction with their lot. 

It would have been more productive to reintroduce conscription.

Student Loans were the next logical step for a debt based economy.

guitars4you

How is the interest created on student debt - someone told me around 6.8% - Yet I saw a report state 1% above base rate

again is this a fixed interest for the period of the loan like  a car loan, or the scam compound interest like a credit card

holnrew

chillidoggy said:

There's too many people going to university when in fact what we need is far more good-quality apprenticeships and vocational training, and colleges to support them, not universities.

I'd be happy to see 'useful' courses subsidised. Engineering, in particular.

And they should subsidise more vocational things for those not in the 18-21 age bracket. I'd love to get into something technical involving electronics or computers but on the job training and such just isn't available to me. And university is just too intense for a retard like me.

May look into going back part time however

strtdv

It's hard to see the point of going to university to come out with £50k+ of debt if you're then going to be earning little more than the minimum wage.

I'm in the very fortunate position of having been the last year to go through on the old system (fees were much lower and I got a grant to cover most of them). I took a maintenance loan which mostly covered my living expenses, and at its peak my total student debt was around £17k. I've been paying it off for the last 6 years and I'll have it paid off within the next 6 months.

I have to say the thought of having 3x the debt would put me off going to university if I wasn't sure of a well paid job on the other side.

chillidoggy

holnrew said:

chillidoggy said:

There's too many people going to university when in fact what we need is far more good-quality apprenticeships and vocational training, and colleges to support them, not universities.

I'd be happy to see 'useful' courses subsidised. Engineering, in particular.

And they should subsidise more vocational things for those not in the 18-21 age bracket. I'd love to get into something technical involving electronics or computers but on the job training and such just isn't available to me. And university is just too intense for a retard like me.

May look into going back part time however

I've not heard of any Adult Education courses round here these days, but then again I've not looked. The wife did a computing course years ago at a local training place, which was OK, but populated with chain-smoking knobbers who were only there sp they kept their dole money.

The same happened at the local college engineering course which got hijacked by those who were only there to prove they were in training, for precisely the same reason. It was disheartening for the guys who arranged the course and genuinely wanted to help young people.

Not trying to be patronising, but have you tried looking through see what's available locally? There may even be grants available? 

ThePrettyDamned

Fretwired said:

There are a number of problems.

In theory students should pay fees - you can add a university tax to them, like NI, which is geared to what you earn. However, universities need funding so whilst the students won't get fees the government won't be saving any money. If fact they will pay more as students will need a maintenance grant.

There's a backlog - if fees stop tomorrow is the built up fee of £100 billion going to be written off? I doubt it as the government doesn't have £100 billion. However, if I were a student why should I pay off my loan? I expect a legal challenge could be mounted. THis could give any government a serious headache.

Too many universities offer poor degree courses. Too many students aren't up to a rigorous university course. This means degrees from some universities are worth more than others.

There aren't enough students in the subjects employers need - for example we have a major shortage in people with maths degrees.

Too many graduates with average degrees have devalued getting one - a number of big employers, like PWC, are taking 18 years olds with good A level grades and funding them through professional qualifications like law and accountancy.

I'd cut the number of universities and fund those with the academic skills to do well. Bring back the Polytechnics offering degree level courses in engineering, computing, technology etc. These courses could be done via a combination of work and study with support from employers (this used to happen in the 1970s.

I would have been better in a more polytechnic style course. I was good at chemistry, but university really demands a passion for the subject I didn't have. 

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. But I couldn't go for it as I had the wrong a levels... Because our education system insists on specialising young. 

I don't know the answer but I would like to see education being broader until university to open opportunities. And university shouldn't be the only end game - I was made to feel like there wasn't any other option for someone as bright as me. I could have done far better from an apprenticeship, and even then I may be able to go to university afterwards regardless. That would make a more rounded candidate I reckon. 

I'm starting from scratch effectively, and that's fine - it's where I should have started. 

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I also found an issue with secondary schools and their careers advising. As the expectation these days is that youngsters will go to university, I suspect there is less emphasis placed on school careers advising. I say this because on two such occasions in the past, I mailshotted every single local secondary school to let them know I was offering an engineering apprenticeship, yet, had such a dismal response from them. The responses I did get, were best described as half-hearted.

The subsequent applications were best described as 'worrying', of those that applied, only about 8 had any half-decent maths/science grades, and at interviews, we had to remind some of them to breathe. This to me means the schools (at least around here, and for what I need) are not turning out employable candidates, so the system not only has problems in higher education, but also at more basic levels.

Tell me about it. You can also blame the parents. I sat in a meeting at an FE college that was being supported by Airbus - engineering apprenticeships which were fully funded with jobs paying in excess for £30K by the time an apprentice was 24 if they got the qualifications and experience. How many applicants do you think they got? The mood was best summed up by a parent who said he wanted his son to go to university and not mess around with a useless apprenticeship.

Those that did apply needed extra tuition as their maths skills weren't up to scratch. Airbus may leave the UK, not because of Brexit but because they can't attract skilled workers.

a lot of this is down to moronic attitudes where people think engineering is a low-status profession

in Germany, mechanical engineers have the prefix Dr before their name, and are highly regarded

Also UK manufacturing industry underpays mech eng grads (in fact they underpay all tech grads in my experience)

ToneControl

I've looked around for the last 5 to 10 years for decent adult courses (e.g. A level) in history, psychology, economics, etc.
None are available
I can only find basic IT, basic photography, basic guitar, Languages, Bollywood dancing and Zumba, and that's from a top 10 6th form college

ToneControl

This topic is a hobby horse of mine, excuse me:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11811928/University-was-never-meant-to-be-for-everybody.-Young-people-have-been-sold-a-lie.html

Axe_meister

ToneControl said:

I've looked around for the last 5 to 10 years for decent adult courses (e.g. A level) in history, psychology, economics, etc.
None are available
I can only find basic IT, basic photography, basic guitar, Languages, Bollywood dancing and Zumba, and that's from a top 10 6th form college

Open university seems the only way to get decent adult education 

Fretwired

ToneControl said:

I've looked around for the last 5 to 10 years for decent adult courses (e.g. A level) in history, psychology, economics, etc.
None are available
I can only find basic IT, basic photography, basic guitar, Languages, Bollywood dancing and Zumba, and that's from a top 10 6th form college

My local college does A-levels in history and economics .. its odd you can't find a course.

Sporky

ThePrettyDamned said:

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. 

Engineering degrees don't teach you to be a machinist or technician or mechanic.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the UK about what an engineering degree actually involves. You don't get a lot of grease on you.

Myranda

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. 

Engineering degrees don't teach you to be a machinist or technician or mechanic.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the UK about what an engineering degree actually involves. You don't get a lot of grease on you.

My mother did a Mechanical Engineering degree... she was in her second year before she knew what a torque wrench did... 

She *did* some machining, but not a lot...

Fretwired said:

ToneControl said:

I've looked around for the last 5 to 10 years for decent adult courses (e.g. A level) in history, psychology, economics, etc.
None are available
I can only find basic IT, basic photography, basic guitar, Languages, Bollywood dancing and Zumba, and that's from a top 10 6th form college

My local college does A-levels in history and economics .. its odd you can't find a course.

But are they adult education courses?

strtdv said:

It's hard to see the point of going to university to come out with £50k+ of debt if you're then going to be earning little more than the minimum wage.

I'm in the very fortunate position of having been the last year to go through on the old system (fees were much lower and I got a grant to cover most of them). I took a maintenance loan which mostly covered my living expenses, and at its peak my total student debt was around £17k. I've been paying it off for the last 6 years and I'll have it paid off within the next 6 months.

I have to say the thought of having 3x the debt would put me off going to university if I wasn't sure of a well paid job on the other side.

Not many students on my study program will be getting minimum wage on graduation - quite a few are doing placement courses which are supposed to be poorly paid and are getting more than minimum wage, one is on £25k and got a bonus for taking that job. People with firsts on my my particular course with firsts (and who did some of the good placements) have ended up getting offered £35k (one of those placements is one I'm desperately wanting to hear back from)... 

guitars4you said:

How is the interest created on student debt - someone told me around 6.8% - Yet I saw a report state 1% above base rate

again is this a fixed interest for the period of the loan like  a car loan, or the scam compound interest like a credit card

It's changed... old system was lower interest, but you pay it back sooner, mine has higher interest base rate +3% 

Clarky

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. 

Engineering degrees don't teach you to be a machinist or technician or mechanic.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the UK about what an engineering degree actually involves. You don't get a lot of grease on you.

these days I'd have thought you'd get covered in bits'n'bytes..
1's and 0's spilling out all over the place 

holnrew

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. 

Engineering degrees don't teach you to be a machinist or technician or mechanic.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the UK about what an engineering degree actually involves. You don't get a lot of grease on you.

95% of the year of electrical engineering degree I did was either in lectures or at the computer. I'm not complaining, just agreeing. Whenever I told anybody what I was doing they thought it was all circuit boards and soldering. 

@chillidoggy I've had a look at the local courses, my psychiatrist recommended I find a year long course because it's all I seem to be able to handle at a time, but the only things in local colleges are HNC/D for people already in work, and even if they'd let me do it I'd have to stump up the cash myself. The best option I have is teaching myself stuff with things like udacity, where I don't have a qualification in the end. I might look to the OU again, but I'm unsure I have the discipline.

Another thing that bothered me with university is that it was too broad in some subjects. I wanted to study digital electronics, circuit design, automation, embedded systems, and networking. But I had to do analogue electrical theory, newtonian physics, advanced mathematics (with 200 other students rammed into a lecture theatre that barely contained them. Every time I tried to attend I had to leave before I had a panic attack), had a C++ lecturer who looked like he was about to keel over and die talk to quietly with slides that were no help at all... The modules I hated outnumbered the ones I was eager to learn, and I was pretty miserable.

If there was a way to just do modules in different things relevant to a career, and have some kind of certificate to show you're capable of doing certain required things, a lot of people would be much happier and able to progress much in their career.

guitars4you

Myranda said:

guitars4you said:

How is the interest created on student debt - someone told me around 6.8% - Yet I saw a report state 1% above base rate

again is this a fixed interest for the period of the loan like  a car loan, or the scam compound interest like a credit card

It's changed... old system was lower interest, but you pay it back sooner, mine has higher interest base rate +3% 

Thanks for that - is the interest charged once as in say a car loan - or is it like a bank overdraft or credit card bill were the interest is effectively added on to the previous balance each month/year so it is a compound interest and costs far far more to borrow

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

ToneControl said:

I've looked around for the last 5 to 10 years for decent adult courses (e.g. A level) in history, psychology, economics, etc.
None are available
I can only find basic IT, basic photography, basic guitar, Languages, Bollywood dancing and Zumba, and that's from a top 10 6th form college

My local college does A-levels in history and economics .. its odd you can't find a course.

The college does lots of A levels, including all the ones I want, but they are all unavailable to anyone over 19
They have separate classes for adults
I've checked other colleges, same story

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. 

Engineering degrees don't teach you to be a machinist or technician or mechanic.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the UK about what an engineering degree actually involves. You don't get a lot of grease on you.

No, but you learn practical techniques and design skills - there is context to what you learn. 

Perhaps it was just me, but there wasn't enough real world context in mine - just incredibly theory heavy. Meh, I don't know. I know that, from what I've seen of my friend's course, I'd have gotten on with it better as it contained a more contextual, practical sense of learning (purposeful, I suppose).