single ended Blackstars!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    ecc83 said:

    If the 70/80 IS really as bad as some state here and that view is held in other forums (without the coat tail effect) I shall be very surprised that Blackstar fitted it in such a 'prestigious' product?

    I *am* very surprised. I can only think someone at Blackstar actually likes the sound of them, and doesn't understand why most other people don't. It's flat, tight and lacks both depth and sparkle.

    It's pretty universally regarded as an extremely average speaker of no noticeable character, which is why it's often used in cheaper modelling amps. It has no place at all in an upmarket valve amp.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589

    "I wish there was a head option - maybe aimed at the studio brigade. " Aha! Now Mac', the head versions of the Artisan 15/30 came quite a bit later. Whether that was customer led I have no idea. I am however pretty sure that the S1 50 head and some others WERE the result of customer pressure.

    On the 'studio' front? Re ICBM's beef about Top Controls. I think the SE amps are actually aimed at the studio and home jockey market a bit and these guys largely sit down and widdle with their amps? As a six footer I find my HT-20 head a bit of a pain even atop a Greenback in a cab?

    I can see the logic in 'ten watts'. The gig scenario is, I understand, moving ever more to lower power amps and PA? I still don't like single ended tho! I suspect marketing's dead hand here. If you want a 10 watter, 2 X 6V6. Pick a decent pair and they will last forever! ...LOVE to know if they are fixed or cathode biased (or, like the EL34  20, a bit of both).

    Dave.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    ecc83 said:

    I still don't like single ended tho! I suspect marketing's dead hand here. If you want a 10 watter, 2 X 6V6. Pick a decent pair and they will last forever! ...LOVE to know if they are fixed or cathode biased (or, like the EL34  20, a bit of both).
    If they're fixed - or even combination - bias, that would be *very* unusual for single-ended. I'm not sure I know of any amp which is.

    It may not be entirely down to marketing either - single-ended does have a 'certain sound', which some people like (and others don't, of course).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26458
    edited July 2017
    ecc83 said:
    Gah...surely they could have given us a 20W KT88 model, which would therefore be giggable?

    Well, peeps do gig the HT-5!

    Dave.

    ecc83 said:

    I can see the logic in 'ten watts'. The gig scenario is, I understand, moving ever more to lower power amps and PA? I still don't like single ended tho! I suspect marketing's dead hand here. If you want a 10 watter, 2 X 6V6. Pick a decent pair and they will last forever! ...LOVE to know if they are fixed or cathode biased (or, like the EL34  20, a bit of both).

    Dave.

    Aye, but in most gig scenarios where the PA takes the brunt of the work in terms of what the audience hears, the amp is responsible for the on-stage sound - the HT-5 won't do that (especially if you want to play clean at all), even with V30s, because it can't get over the drums. Similarly, I've never come across a 10W amp that could either - at least not without driving the power section past the point where you could reasonably call it "clean" - and definitely not driving a single 12" speaker.

    20W, however, can do it with a reasonably clean signal which gets slightly dirty when boosting for solos (that's how I gig these days). I don't know the electrickery involved, but surely a KT88 should be able to put out at least 20W even cathode-biased...?

    On the other hand, a stereo pair of these things could be an interesting thing.
    <space for hire>
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    ecc83 said:
    Gah...surely they could have given us a 20W KT88 model, which would therefore be giggable?

    Well, peeps do gig the HT-5!

    Dave.

    ecc83 said:

    I can see the logic in 'ten watts'. The gig scenario is, I understand, moving ever more to lower power amps and PA? I still don't like single ended tho! I suspect marketing's dead hand here. If you want a 10 watter, 2 X 6V6. Pick a decent pair and they will last forever! ...LOVE to know if they are fixed or cathode biased (or, like the EL34  20, a bit of both).

    Dave.

    Aye, but in most gig scenarios where the PA takes the brunt of the work in terms of what the audience hears, the amp is responsible for the on-stage sound - the HT-5 won't do that (especially if you want to play clean at all), even with V30s, because it can't get over the drums. Similarly, I've never come across a 10W amp that could either - at least not without driving the power section past the point where you could reasonably call it "clean" - and definitely not driving a single 12" speaker.

    20W, however, can do it with a reasonably clean signal which gets slightly dirty when boosting for solos (that's how I gig these days). I don't know the electrickery involved, but surely a KT88 should be able to put out at least 20W even cathode-biased...?

    On the other hand, a stereo pair of these things could be an interesting thing.
    This, headroom gives dynamics, pushing a 10w amp to gig volumes is a oneway ticket to FlatsVille....
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    digitalscream said:

    I don't know the electrickery involved, but surely a KT88 should be able to put out at least 20W even cathode-biased...?
    Not quite, at least if you're sticking within the original design values - max plate dissipation is 35W, so that would produce only 17.5W even assuming a 100% efficient transformer. But some KT88s seem to be rated for up to 42W, so you could do it using those. A lot of valve-amp designers have no hesitation in exceeding the dissipation ratings anyway…

    The reason you can get over 100W from a pair in normal KT88 circuits is because they're operated at nearer to the Class B end of Class AB than the Class A end, so the average power dissipation is a much lower fraction of the maximum.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    @ICBM You must be pleased that they have acknowledged in their blurb that they have solid state components?
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    ecc83 said:

    If the 70/80 IS really as bad as some state here and that view is held in other forums (without the coat tail effect) I shall be very surprised that Blackstar fitted it in such a 'prestigious' product?

    <snip>

    Dave.

    My Rivera Clubster 45 was (and probably still is, but it's not mine any more) fitted with a 70/80. I tried a V30 to see how that went and reverted back because I preferred the 70/80 with that particular amp. I wouldn't call myself a speaker "expert" by any means, but I'm sure some amps will respond better to one speaker and other amps to another. The 70/80 might sound great in the Blackstar. 
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 6807
    (quiet voice) I like Celestion Seventy/80 speakers for Fendery clean tones. Happy to take yours for free :)
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26458
    ICBM said:
    digitalscream said:

    I don't know the electrickery involved, but surely a KT88 should be able to put out at least 20W even cathode-biased...?
    Not quite, at least if you're sticking within the original design values - max plate dissipation is 35W, so that would produce only 17.5W even assuming a 100% efficient transformer. But some KT88s seem to be rated for up to 42W, so you could do it using those. A lot of valve-amp designers have no hesitation in exceeding the dissipation ratings anyway…

    The reason you can get over 100W from a pair in normal KT88 circuits is because they're operated at nearer to the Class B end of Class AB than the Class A end, so the average power dissipation is a much lower fraction of the maximum.

    Thanks - useful info indeed. Then again, 17.5W is about what my JCA22H puts out at the onset of breakup, and that handles gig volume nicely, so I'm inclined to say that'd do nicely :)
    <space for hire>
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    Chalky said:
    (quiet voice) I like Celestion Seventy/80 speakers for Fendery clean tones. Happy to take yours for free :)
    I just threw mine (from an ht40) in the bin. Had it on the local Swiss auction site for 1chf for 3 years.
    Pile of junk. Honestly,  I don't understand why the don't go with the A or V, they are not that much more money. Why build a really good amp and stick a crap speaker in it?
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    ecc83 said:

    If the 70/80 IS really as bad as some state here and that view is held in other forums (without the coat tail effect) I shall be very surprised that Blackstar fitted it in such a 'prestigious' product?

    <snip>

    Dave.

    My Rivera Clubster 45 was (and probably still is, but it's not mine any more) fitted with a 70/80. I tried a V30 to see how that went and reverted back because I preferred the 70/80 with that particular amp. I wouldn't call myself a speaker "expert" by any means, but I'm sure some amps will respond better to one speaker and other amps to another. The 70/80 might sound great in the Blackstar. 
    The V30 in particular can be a very poor choice in some amps and great in others.
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  • HoofHoof Frets: 491
    These need to be available as compact heads. 

    Also on the S1 combo they've forgone a proper EQ section in favour of the ISF control. I don't mind that on my ID combo at home but for a gigable amp (especially one focused on higher gain tones) you really need a proper EQ.
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  • RiftAmpsRiftAmps Frets: 3113
    edited July 2017 tFB Trader
    I think these are a great idea (albeit poor speaker choice).

    Here's to hoping the Artisan is turret board like the originals 
    *I no longer offer replacement speaker baffles*
    Rift Amplification
    Handwired Guitar Amplifiers
    Brackley, Northamptonshire
    www.riftamps.co.uk

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    I can actually see the Seventy/80 working quite well in scooped, loose, bright-sounding amps… like SF Fenders. The speaker is the exact opposite, so the two may well cancel each other out - in the same but opposite way that the G12T-75 sounds very good in many solid-state amps (eg Marshall Valvestates), exactly because it's quite a hollow, boomy speaker which makes a tight, flat solid-state output section sound looser and more valve-like.

    It's very much the wrong choice in a Blackstar though in my opinion - because the amps are already inherently tight, dark and middy. This does make me think it is a deliberate choice as much as for cost reasons, but when I've tried any Blackstar through different speakers than the stock ones it's always sounded better to me! In particular the HT-40 I tried through a Classic Lead 80 sounded really pretty good.

    I don't even like the V30 in the Artisans, although I love it with things like Mesa Rectifiers - but with the Blackstar it makes an already middy amp worse. The Artisan sounds better with Greenbacks - some 15s did come with them as stock, to be fair.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413
    edited July 2017
    ecc83 said:
    Gah...surely they could have given us a 20W KT88 model, which would therefore be giggable?

    Well, peeps do gig the HT-5!

    Dave.

    ecc83 said:

    I can see the logic in 'ten watts'. The gig scenario is, I understand, moving ever more to lower power amps and PA? I still don't like single ended tho! I suspect marketing's dead hand here. If you want a 10 watter, 2 X 6V6. Pick a decent pair and they will last forever! ...LOVE to know if they are fixed or cathode biased (or, like the EL34  20, a bit of both).

    Dave.

    Aye, but in most gig scenarios where the PA takes the brunt of the work in terms of what the audience hears, the amp is responsible for the on-stage sound - the HT-5 won't do that (especially if you want to play clean at all), even with V30s, because it can't get over the drums. Similarly, I've never come across a 10W amp that could either - at least not without driving the power section past the point where you could reasonably call it "clean" - and definitely not driving a single 12" speaker.

    20W, however, can do it with a reasonably clean signal which gets slightly dirty when boosting for solos (that's how I gig these days). I don't know the electrickery involved, but surely a KT88 should be able to put out at least 20W even cathode-biased...?

    On the other hand, a stereo pair of these things could be an interesting thing.
    I've used a single ended Cornell Romany Plus live.  If you put it up on a stand it's enough to hear yourself unless you have a very heavy handed drummer.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    ecc83 said:
    Gah...surely they could have given us a 20W KT88 model, which would therefore be giggable?

    Well, peeps do gig the HT-5!

    Dave.

    ecc83 said:

    I can see the logic in 'ten watts'. The gig scenario is, I understand, moving ever more to lower power amps and PA? I still don't like single ended tho! I suspect marketing's dead hand here. If you want a 10 watter, 2 X 6V6. Pick a decent pair and they will last forever! ...LOVE to know if they are fixed or cathode biased (or, like the EL34  20, a bit of both).

    Dave.

    Aye, but in most gig scenarios where the PA takes the brunt of the work in terms of what the audience hears, the amp is responsible for the on-stage sound - the HT-5 won't do that (especially if you want to play clean at all), even with V30s, because it can't get over the drums. Similarly, I've never come across a 10W amp that could either - at least not without driving the power section past the point where you could reasonably call it "clean" - and definitely not driving a single 12" speaker.

    20W, however, can do it with a reasonably clean signal which gets slightly dirty when boosting for solos (that's how I gig these days). I don't know the electrickery involved, but surely a KT88 should be able to put out at least 20W even cathode-biased...?

    On the other hand, a stereo pair of these things could be an interesting thing.
     I don't really have a problem getting my HT5 above the drums with a clean-ish sound, certainly clean enough to do tracks  like sultans of swing ....  There is many many a time when whoever is doing the sound for us have told me to turn the amp down .  Our regular sound guy knows my GT 10 is in the loop of the HT5 so he knows he can turn me down just by adjusting the master volume of the GT10 on the floor ...  He doesn't even have to ask me anymore 

     I do sometimes play with some real big hitters drum wise ..,the kinda guys where you have to wear hearing protection  if you don't use IEMs otherwise it's  just going to damage your hearing .   In that scenario an HT5 may struggle to be crystal clean over  the drums but then again in a situation like that you shouldn't really fight Volume with volume 

     All my comments relate to an HT5 head  with a boost in the FX loop  ... into quite a large one by 12 cab fitted with an old Celestion lead 75 speaker,  that is a completely different animal to the little HT5 combo amp that most folks are familiar with 


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • TelejesterTelejester Frets: 743
    Bit of a pisser that the original artisans are all handwired, for 499.00 unlikely the 10w artisan will be also.
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589
    Bit of a pisser that the original artisans are all handwired, for 499.00 unlikely the 10w artisan will be also.


    Quite but I have always thought that a PCB version of the Artisans (15 &30 at least) would be a good seller?

    Get rid of the *&^%"!! valve rectifiers (and fit a switchable 'sag' R if you like. A standby switch if you must!) Makes the mains traff MUCH simpler and therefore cheaper . DC heat the pre amp valves. An effects loop is tricky given the peculiar circuit topology but I have a few ideas.

    Those that know a bit about me know I came late to guitar amps as a job. My audio background is hi fi and PA. I am therefore ideologically opposed to SE valve amps! Ok for the arse end of a radio with a 12W pentode and 3-4W output but have serious technical drawbacks to me for any more power.

    I cannot find a circuit atmo' for a single ended KT88 amp but kludging from the GEC 50W cathode biased circuit (virtually class A) the valve would need 425 on its anode and pull an Ia of 87mA. The bias resistor would be 525 Ohms and at least of 5W rating. Now, that all puts the cathode at 50V + so not only are you loosing 50V* of HT you are dissipating about half the deliver power, ALL the fekking time, in that bloody resistor! I would think that 1/2 a PPull kludge would put out no more than 12 watts or so?

    Plus, all else being equal the output transformer would need to be about the size and cost of at least a 50W push pull design.

    *ICBM. This is why I suspect part fixed bias.  Ah! Just remembered. There was a Pye company hi fi amp that used an EL34 SE circuit. Was it called the 'Mozart'? Anyway it had some pretty fancy NFB circuits to tame all that distortion! 10W with a firm wind avast it. Speaker then were bigger and more sensitive.

    Dave.

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    @ICBM You must be pleased that they have acknowledged in their blurb that they have solid state components?
    Maybe I missed it, but where does it say that?
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