The cult of ignorance, anti-intellectualism and "dumbing down"

Drew_TNBD

ThePrettyDamned said:

My girlfriend's sister says she feels hopeless though - she feels like she doesn't have prospects, and has seen me and her sister struggle for work despite being graduates etc, and often talks about the mad price of houses. She doesn't resent needing to work, she resents feeling like her potential has not been met - she didn't do well at school, but if you knew her you'd know she is a great candidate for plenty of roles. Perhaps this view is shared by her friends too, but it wasn't communicated very clearly.

A lot of people in working class towns feel this way. They can't get the basic shitty warehouse jobs, picking bottles of pop for 8 hours.

strtdv

I suppose one problem of a meritocracy is that merit breeds merit.

Middle class professionals marry/partner with other middle class professionals, and generally their children have opportunities in life that someone from a more disadvantaged background may not have (a parent able to reduce their hours and bring up the kids at home, the ability to buy a house in the catchment area of a good school, work connections to get a work experience placement which looks good come university application time etc).
The "university for all" mantra of the Blair era hasn't changed that either, because there's a big difference in post-university prospects for someone who went to Oxbridge or even a Russell Group university and someone who went somewhere else.

I was grammar school educated and in some ways I'm quite surprised by the connections I'm still able to make because of that. The middle class of the country is a network of old boys.


I'm not saying you can't succeed through other channels, but I think it's quite easy for middle class people to say "we must help those less fortunate than us" knowing that your own children will still have an advantage.

strtdv

Without being too right-wing/politically incorrect about it, part of the problem with the welfare state is that we don't allow people to suffer the repercussions of bad/stupid choices.

People think they know better than experts, but then when they get themselves into trouble through their ignorance, the state rescues them.

They get to have their ignorant cake and eat it.

shrinkwrap

Well here we all are listening to each other's thoughts.. and reacting in one way or another - getting angry sometimes.. stress over a screen.
We can shout as much as we want and whoever makes the biggest noise gets the most reaction. That's what social media promotes. Any route to getting attention is as good as any other route. Short and simple is easiest.

Crap like Eastenders and the glorification of thugs started the rot thirty years ago.

I didn't have to put that last line - I just want to wind someone up.

Fretwired

Here we go ... more PC crap .. the Black Country flag.



Apparently, the Black Country flag is 'racist' and should be scrapped says Wolverhampton MP Eleanor Smith. Apparently, the design of the flag had been ‘a big mistake’ because it failed to represent the Black Country’s multi-cultural communities, only its industrial past.

Dumber than dumb ...

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2017/07/15/black-country-flag-is-racist-and-should-be-scrapped-says-wolverhampton-mp-eleanor-smith/#6RfsBFQgzRpGbJ3Q.01

chillidoggy

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

And a lot of it echoes what I experienced as a child and as a teenager. I think what you're talking about actually isn't an argument against meritocratic thinking. It's an argument against a lot of the 'snowflake' stuff. Because kids get brought up with the idea that they don't have to work hard to achieve things, and that simply being is enough. Which makes for a rather rude awakening when they come of age.

Where are they told this? Where at school are they told that they simply have to sit on their arses and not get decent grades? 

Digiscream has already answered this, but also I'd add that in certain classes this definitely happened to me. They wrote me off if I didn't show aptitude or interest, or if I was a disruptive element. They'd essentially sit you at the back of the class.

The Fretboard - The only place I know where I can sit at the back of the class, be a disruptive element, show no aptitude or interest, and no-one gives a flying fuck!

scrumhalf

strtdv said:

Without being too right-wing/politically incorrect about it, part of the problem with the welfare state is that we don't allow people to suffer the repercussions of bad/stupid choices.

People think they know better than experts, but then when they get themselves into trouble through their ignorance, the state rescues them.

They get to have their ignorant cake and eat it.

You need to experience failure in order to want to have and to enjoy success. Nothing wrong with telling someone "no, that wasn't good enough, you can and will do better with more effort".

And don't get me started on "rights". The whole debate has becvome perverted - a right is something enjoyed by someone who performs a duty, that seems to have become lost.

littlegreenman

scrumhalf said:

And don't get me started on "rights". The whole debate has becvome perverted - a right is something enjoyed by someone who performs a duty, that seems to have become lost.

What duty does one have to perform to enjoy basic human "rights"? And how would a newborn go about doing this?

holnrew

Rights are inherent, they're not something you "earn"

Drew_TNBD

holnrew said:

Rights are inherent, they're not something you "earn"

Rights are an illusion. We're all animals, and nothing can protect you from a rapist cannibal who has her eyes on you. 

Heartfeltdawn

digitalscream said:

Wait...nobody's saying they're thick. More than anything, they seem to feel entitled. You may call it "labelling of an entire generation", but there are characteristics common to each generation which are influenced by the development of society (and it'd be pretty much impossible to justify a statement like "society hasn't changed").

It's also reflective of how parenting styles have changed, and there's plenty of blame to go around for that. My generation has, to a large degree, caused the snowflake effect with our desire to make our children feel special...the problem is that they often feel too special, and we don't know how to deal with that.

They seem to feel entitled but what sort of entitlements are they going to have? They're not going to have the same sort of opportunities that the baby boomers had for instance.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

You can be a newsagent now and own a good house. Many people do it. I'm doing it right now!! Okay, not the newsagent bit.. but you get the point - hard graft can still get you a house, if that's what you want.

Yes it can. You've done some real hard work which is something you should always get a bucketload of credit for. But there are plenty of hard workers out there who won't get that opportunity. 

You got stereotyped by an education system and got pushed back. That's shit. But why denounce and stereotype a huge swath of the population? 

Fret's first post at the top of this thread mentioned Mark Bauerlein and how a generation was being dumbed down by the online experience and how they celebrate the vapid. Bauerlein converted to Catholicism in 2012 (I suggest reading his blog on the experience). Personally I find the Kardashian antics vapid and I would put his religion in exactly the same bracket. There are quite a number of selkf-pronounced religious libertarians eager to smack down the younger generation: one wonders if some of it is down to the ever-decreasing numbers of young people getting involved in traditional Western Christian circles. 

Heartfeltdawn

scrumhalf said:

And don't get me started on "rights". The whole debate has becvome perverted - a right is something enjoyed by someone who performs a duty, that seems to have become lost.

I'd disagree more but it's time for bed. 

Evilmags

Rights are negative. You have a right to live, not be molested by others, and to your property and liberty. Despite what a plethora of politicians would believe you don't have amy right to other people's property time or effort .

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

You can be a newsagent now and own a good house. Many people do it. I'm doing it right now!! Okay, not the newsagent bit.. but you get the point - hard graft can still get you a house, if that's what you want.

Yes it can. You've done some real hard work which is something you should always get a bucketload of credit for. But there are plenty of hard workers out there who won't get that opportunity. 

You got stereotyped by an education system and got pushed back. That's shit. But why denounce and stereotype a huge swath of the population? 

Fret's first post at the top of this thread mentioned Mark Bauerlein and how a generation was being dumbed down by the online experience and how they celebrate the vapid. Bauerlein converted to Catholicism in 2012 (I suggest reading his blog on the experience). Personally I find the Kardashian antics vapid and I would put his religion in exactly the same bracket. There are quite a number of selkf-pronounced religious libertarians eager to smack down the younger generation: one wonders if some of it is down to the ever-decreasing numbers of young people getting involved in traditional Western Christian circles. 

Who is denouncing? You're the only one doing that.

scrumhalf

littlegreenman said:

scrumhalf said:

And don't get me started on "rights". The whole debate has becvome perverted - a right is something enjoyed by someone who performs a duty, that seems to have become lost.

What duty does one have to perform to enjoy basic human "rights"? And how would a newborn go about doing this?

A newborn baby is incapable of performing any duties and is under the age of legal responsibility.

What are "basic human rights"?

Evilmags

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

You can be a newsagent now and own a good house. Many people do it. I'm doing it right now!! Okay, not the newsagent bit.. but you get the point - hard graft can still get you a house, if that's what you want.

Yes it can. You've done some real hard work which is something you should always get a bucketload of credit for. But there are plenty of hard workers out there who won't get that opportunity. 

You got stereotyped by an education system and got pushed back. That's shit. But why denounce and stereotype a huge swath of the population? 

Fret's first post at the top of this thread mentioned Mark Bauerlein and how a generation was being dumbed down by the online experience and how they celebrate the vapid. Bauerlein converted to Catholicism in 2012 (I suggest reading his blog on the experience). Personally I find the Kardashian antics vapid and I would put his religion in exactly the same bracket. There are quite a number of selkf-pronounced religious libertarians eager to smack down the younger generation: one wonders if some of it is down to the ever-decreasing numbers of young people getting involved in traditional Western Christian circles. 

Paleo-Libertarians are a product of some very wrong interpretations of writers who were basically classical liberals. Religion is just another form of government. 

57Deluxe

LBCunt

https://assets9.lbc.co.uk/2016/41/james-obrien-head-in-hands-1476189415-list-handheld-0.png

aord43

holnrew said:

aord43 said:

illierate

Sweet irony.

But I think a lot of people don't realise they're illiterate. They think as long as they get their point across it's fine. But it's corrupting the language; "literally" now has a dictionary definition which is the total opposite of what it should mean, and I see a lot of people using "ignorant" as though it means you ignore people. I know languages evolve and whatever, but this kind of thing is actually hampering communication. If you're well spoken and call somebody who isn't so eloquent "literally ignorant" they might take it as a compliment.

Only just realised my typo!  Had to happen really.  Misuse of "Literally" is one of my bugbears too.  Never seen that use of "ignorant" but it probably won't be long, sadly :-(

crunchman

darthed1981 said:

Kids these days are (often not always) told to pass exams at school, not taught to learn, or the value of knowledge, just to pass exams.  Even the best teachers struggle under the pressure of league tables and regular national testing. 

This