Acid attacks in London

mellowsun

bodhi said:

jonnyburgo said:

Fucking scary shit. Cowardly little bastards.

+1

Whatever deterrents are in place don't seem to be working for some people.  Are we too soft on assholes who do this kind of thing?

Deterrents don't work for gangbangers, you've got to stop them joining gangs, once they're in, it's too late, a life of harming people and jail time is mapped out.

Dominic

Apparently Girl gangs are often responsible for this.

Placidcasual79

mellowsun said:

bodhi said:

jonnyburgo said:

Fucking scary shit. Cowardly little bastards.

+1

Whatever deterrents are in place don't seem to be working for some people.  Are we too soft on assholes who do this kind of thing?

Deterrents don't work for gangbangers, you've got to stop them joining gangs, once they're in, it's too late, a life of harming people and jail time is mapped out.

Broadly speaking I don't think deterrents work. 

A more effective solution is to endeavour to ensure young people feel included and valued and able to achieve 

octatonic

Placidcasual79 said:

mellowsun said:

bodhi said:

jonnyburgo said:

Fucking scary shit. Cowardly little bastards.

+1

Whatever detergents are in place don't seem to be working for some people.  Are we too soft on assholes who do this kind of thing?

Detergents don't work for gangbangers, you've got to stop them joining gangs, once they're in, it's too late, a life of harming people and jail time is mapped out.

Broadly speaking I don't think detergents work. 

A more effective solution is to endeavour to ensure young people feel included and valued and able to achieve 

No, you need water.
Lots of cold water.

Emp_Fab

Perhaps everyone should carry some bicarb on them, in case.  It would help to increase the pH of the acid.  Certainly better than the detergents suggested earlier.

bodhi

Placidcasual79 said:

A more effective solution is to endeavour to ensure young people feel included and valued and able to achieve 

I agree.  But if you throw acid in someone's face, then sorry - you have no place in civilized society no matter what your excuse is.

octatonic

bodhi said:

Placidcasual79 said:

A more effective solution is to endeavour to ensure young people feel included and valued and able to achieve 

I agree.  But if you throw acid in someone's face, then sorry - you have no place in civilized society no matter what your excuse is.

Agree.
This isn't dealing drugs to people that want them, or nicking something in order to sell it to get some money.
I can kinda see the reasoning behind doing that- even if I don't agree with it.
Throwing acid in people's faces is premeditated by definition and it is just beyond the pale- the consequences for victims is lifelong and IMHO the punishment should be a life sentence.

bodhi

^ Absolutely.

Placidcasual79

octatonic said:

bodhi said:

Placidcasual79 said:

A more effective solution is to endeavour to ensure young people feel included and valued and able to achieve 

I agree.  But if you throw acid in someone's face, then sorry - you have no place in civilized society no matter what your excuse is.

Agree.
This isn't dealing drugs to people that want them, or nicking something in order to sell it to get some money.
I can kinda see the reasoning behind doing that- even if I don't agree with it.
Throwing acid in people's faces is premeditated by definition and it is just beyond the pale- the consequences for victims is lifelong and IMHO the punishment should be a life sentence.

Its a valid position - its an utterly reprehensible crime, no question and therefore its possible that a life sentence is a proportionate response. You could argue that such a measure would be the only de facto way of ensuring some one dangerous enough to commit a crime of this nature does go on to seriously harm some one else.

My point was that I don't think sentences of that nature act as a deterrent.   

bodhi

Placidcasual79 said:

My point was that I don't think sentences of that nature act as a deterrent.   

Well, whatever the penalty currently is, it sure as hell didn't deter these two little bastards.

But I do imagine that the thought of being arrested, hauled into court, and ending up in prison might actually help to keep most people in line if/when their thoughts turn to committing a spot of crime.  It works on me, in any case.

hotpot

It just beggars belief why someone would do such a thing, I hope the worthless turd that they arrested isn't going to get a slap on the wrists for this attack, They need to be jailed for a long period.

sinbaadi

octatonic said:

Bygone_Tones said:

Another example of the media adding fuel to a small flame and turning it into an inferno. The more it appears in the news, the more idiots see it and think "hey that's a good idea, I'll do that".

Nope- they are already doing it.
Gangs do it as an initiation and the reason they use acid is because it carries a lesser sentence than carrying knife.
It is also more easily accessible if you are under 21, which many are.

It is a mistake to think these kids are so easily swayed by the media- they don't care about the media- they care about their immediate groups of friends, their gangs and being able to prove themselves.

The media is irrelevant.

The media is/are not irrelevant here.  To suggest that is to ignore any publicity that they would bring to these attacks, and to ignore any glorification of the act that gangs might take from nationwide coverage.

I mean, might they be doing it anyway?  Sure.  I'd certainly bet they would be doing something and wouldn't blame the media entirely, but notoriety and publicity are powerful things.  Look at the way the press deal with martyrdom, or school shootings in the United States.  I do not believe, if the perpetrators of these acts were made so anonymous they might as well have never existed, that others (the next bombers/shooters etc) would look at these things in the same way.

mellowsun

Prison isn't a deterrent for gang members - it's a badge of honour.

Drew_TNBD

sinbaadi said:

octatonic said:

Bygone_Tones said:

Another example of the media adding fuel to a small flame and turning it into an inferno. The more it appears in the news, the more idiots see it and think "hey that's a good idea, I'll do that".

Nope- they are already doing it.
Gangs do it as an initiation and the reason they use acid is because it carries a lesser sentence than carrying knife.
It is also more easily accessible if you are under 21, which many are.

It is a mistake to think these kids are so easily swayed by the media- they don't care about the media- they care about their immediate groups of friends, their gangs and being able to prove themselves.

The media is irrelevant.

The media is/are not irrelevant here.  To suggest that is to ignore any publicity that they would bring to these attacks, and to ignore any glorification of the act that gangs might take from nationwide coverage.

I mean, might they be doing it anyway?  Sure.  I'd certainly bet they would be doing something and wouldn't blame the media entirely, but notoriety and publicity are powerful things.  Look at the way the press deal with martyrdom, or school shootings in the United States.  I do not believe, if the perpetrators of these acts were made so anonymous they might as well have never existed, that others (the next bombers/shooters etc) would look at these things in the same way.

You don't understand gang culture.

octatonic

sinbaadi said:

octatonic said:

Bygone_Tones said:

Another example of the media adding fuel to a small flame and turning it into an inferno. The more it appears in the news, the more idiots see it and think "hey that's a good idea, I'll do that".

Nope- they are already doing it.
Gangs do it as an initiation and the reason they use acid is because it carries a lesser sentence than carrying knife.
It is also more easily accessible if you are under 21, which many are.

It is a mistake to think these kids are so easily swayed by the media- they don't care about the media- they care about their immediate groups of friends, their gangs and being able to prove themselves.

The media is irrelevant.

The media is/are not irrelevant here.  To suggest that is to ignore any publicity that they would bring to these attacks, and to ignore any glorification of the act that gangs might take from nationwide coverage.

I mean, might they be doing it anyway?  Sure.  I'd certainly bet they would be doing something and wouldn't blame the media entirely, but notoriety and publicity are powerful things.  Look at the way the press deal with martyrdom, or school shootings in the United States.  I do not believe, if the perpetrators of these acts were made so anonymous they might as well have never existed, that others (the next bombers/shooters etc) would look at these things in the same way.

As Drew says, I do not think you understand the world they inhabit.
Making the news would only be significant if the news was something they remotely cared about- it isn't.
They are doing it for notoriety- but that comes from within the sealed system that is the gang and their friends.

Bygone Tones suggested that the media were adding fuel to the flame and turning it into an inferno.
That simply isn't true.

You cannot equate acid attackers with terrorists- they have a different world view, a completely different set of aims and a different agenda.
The gang people are looking inwardly to their own gang and trying to prove themselves to people they think matter in their life.
They largely don't care about anyone outside that world.

The terrorists are looking for maximum exposure.
The role of the media is more crucial in terror attacks, I'll grant you that.

grungebob

It's just a horrendous thing to do. I work in an industry reliant on chemicals and the amount of respect we have given each and every task involving them makes this seem like a huge slap in the face. We spend thousands of pounds segregating people from chemicals and then cunts like these just chuck it in people's faces. 
Stricter controls and tougher punishments are the only recourse. 

sinbaadi

octatonic said:

sinbaadi said:

octatonic said:

Bygone_Tones said:

Another example of the media adding fuel to a small flame and turning it into an inferno. The more it appears in the news, the more idiots see it and think "hey that's a good idea, I'll do that".

Nope- they are already doing it.
Gangs do it as an initiation and the reason they use acid is because it carries a lesser sentence than carrying knife.
It is also more easily accessible if you are under 21, which many are.

It is a mistake to think these kids are so easily swayed by the media- they don't care about the media- they care about their immediate groups of friends, their gangs and being able to prove themselves.

The media is irrelevant.

The media is/are not irrelevant here.  To suggest that is to ignore any publicity that they would bring to these attacks, and to ignore any glorification of the act that gangs might take from nationwide coverage.

I mean, might they be doing it anyway?  Sure.  I'd certainly bet they would be doing something and wouldn't blame the media entirely, but notoriety and publicity are powerful things.  Look at the way the press deal with martyrdom, or school shootings in the United States.  I do not believe, if the perpetrators of these acts were made so anonymous they might as well have never existed, that others (the next bombers/shooters etc) would look at these things in the same way.

As Drew says, I do not think you understand the world they inhabit.
Making the news would only be significant if the news was something they remotely cared about- it isn't.
They are doing it for notoriety- but that comes from within the sealed system that is the gang and their friends.

Bygone Tones suggested that the media were adding fuel to the flame and turning it into an inferno.
That simply isn't true.

You cannot equate acid attackers with terrorists- they have a different world view, a completely different set of aims and a different agenda.
The gang people are looking inwardly to their own gang and trying to prove themselves to people they think matter in their life.
They largely don't care about anyone outside that world.

The terrorists are looking for maximum exposure.
The role of the media is more crucial in terror attacks, I'll grant you that.

I'm not sure each acid attack is a unique and original idea.  Acid attacks became famous nationally and internationally because of media coverage and that must have played a part in why they have become so commonplace.  If you can't imagine a scene where a headline or image is used as some kind of badge of honor then perhaps you over-estimate the isolation of the gang members from the wider world.
They may only care what their peers think, but as a gauge of their "success" and personal notoriety, the media plays a huge part, even if only to give others ideas.

robgilmo

Are these attacks being aimed towards Muslims, from what I have seen they are.

Drew_TNBD

robgilmo said:

Are these attacks being aimed towards Muslims, from what I have seen they are.

According to this article from 2015:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/30/acid-attack-hospital-admissions-have-almost-doubled-in-last-10-years

Six in 10 of all victims were male, while 71% described their ethnic origin as white British, the figures show (white British, according to the 2011 census, accounts for 80% of the British population in England and Wales). Globally, an estimated 80% of victims are women.

Also:
https://katiepiperfoundation.org.uk/acid-attacks-new-research-reveals-unexpected-demographics-and-highlights-the-need-for-tighter-regulation-of-corrosive-substances/

They also found that victims were mostly young men, assaulted by male perpetrators, a very different demographic compared to similar attacks in Low and Middle Income countries including India, Iran, Jamaica, Bangladesh and Uganda and Cambodia.

The UK is a bit of an anomaly it seems. Because it's mostly young white men who are victims of acid attacks. However worldwide 80% of acid attacks are women, and it seems that a significant chunk of that is motivated by Islamic intolerance - dislike of girls going to school, or learning to drive, etc...

Emp_Fab

Just to play a bit of devil's advocaat, say these people had been targeting only Asian men who had themselves disfigured women by acid attacks.  To give them a 'taste of their own medicine' so to speak.  Would anyone here feel less angry about it?