Finger Independence - The Holy Grail for Guitarists

AxeInsight

Old_Swanner said:

Danji said:

finger independence = Bach's Lute Suites or something with some excellent counterpoint 

I've no doubt great finger independence is required to perform these pieces well.  The question is whether simply learning them will by itself improve finger independence?

It's the same situation as I outlined above re. martial arts.  An equivalent statement to yours would be something like "martial arts physical ability = kicking to head height".  But my interest liies in answering questions like "Can you get that ability just by repeatedly trying to kick higher?" (and I'm not saying that's not possible for some), or "Is there a better way?"

That's a good point, however I would stop even before that, I think it all depends on your goals and what tools you already have at your disposition to get the job done.

Some martial artists can't kick to head height, but if they get a hold of you they'll choke you out in 2 seconds, they don't care nor necessarily need to kick you in the head to put you to sleep .

So in my opinion finger independence is only "the holy grail" if achieving a good level of finger independence is your ultimate goal, and I would argue that guitar is about music before it is about technique, so making it your highest goal isn't something I would recommend.

I know this thread is in the "Technique" section but I think it's good to never loose sight of the fact that we're playing a music instrument, so even if we master a particular technique, it is only a tool to allow us to express ourselves and translate our emotions more accurately through music. Therefore, making any mechanical skill the be all end all is foolish to me.

Tell me if I'm wrong though, or if I missed the point.

Cheers, Max.

Old_Swanner

AxeInsight said:

I would argue that guitar is about music before it is about technique.

Certainly our destination (what we want to play) is purely  musical, but our journey (how we get there, the practice that improves us) is purely technical.  Luckily we can make many stops along the journey (playing) to enjoy (and test out) the technique we have achieved up to that point.

Danji

Old_Swanner said:

AxeInsight said:

I would argue that guitar is about music before it is about technique.

Certainly our destination (what we want to play) is purely  musical, but our journey (how we get there, the practice that improves us) is purely technical.  Luckily we can make many stops along the journey (playing) to enjoy (and test out) the technique we have achieved up to that point.

Here’s a novel concept, why not make the destinations, part of the journey?

AlexC

Without meaning to brag I'm lucky in that I have mastered finger independence. I can chop onions and make an Airfix Spitfire while playing the guitar. I won't tell you what my other four fingers are doing because it's personal.

Old_Swanner

Danji said:

Here’s a novel concept, why not make the destinations, part of the journey?

I mustn't have been clear.  The "stops along the journey" I referred to are I think what you're suggesting here.

Old_Swanner

Gone quiet.  Here's episode three, containing one of my toughest challenges for students, the "Double Chromatic" pattern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falko_wwiGk

viz

Old_Swanner said:

Gone quiet.  Here's episode three, containing one of my toughest challenges for students, the "Double Chromatic" pattern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falko_wwiGk

I found that quite natural and easy. The one I struggled with was two chords you showed, flipping between them. What were they again?

Old_Swanner

Can't get the image to show .. chords were Amaj9 and E9

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viz

Oh yeah ta

Danji

I totally forgot about doing a video response, so here is a very awkward version of me talking into a video recorder on the subject. 

https://youtu.be/g3xbD3ppi2Q

Old_Swanner

Nice one @Danji ;.. you have yourself a new subscriber for those effortless sounding jazz lines.

I'm right with you that merely repeating spider patterns is probably not the best way to develop finger independence, or repeating any patterns for that matter.  I had hoped I'd made that clear in the videos above, will take another look.

Old_Swanner

@Danji 2:14-3:55 in the third video is where I'm coming from.