Electric cars - how 'green' are they?

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chillidoggychillidoggy Frets: 17136
I've long since wondered: Are we just moving emissions from cars to power stations?


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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Right now, yes but as investment in renewables increases and we get a greater yield then things will improve.
    Solar is improving all the time- the solar roof tiles are promising.
    Wave energy, wind etc are all coming along.
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  • monofinmonofin Frets: 1118
    Interesting that power stations are consuming more coal than ever to meet demand
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  • m_cm_c Frets: 1211

    It all depends on what part of the picture you want to look at or ignore.

    Solar panels are energy intensive to make, and wind farms are energy intensive to construct (concrete has a huge carbon footprint), which means their carbon payback is very long, and that's before you consider the environmental cost of producing lithium batteries.

    And without the availability of good storage, is it better to have power stations than run at high capacity regularly, or only run at minimal capacity expect from the inevitable periods where renewables can't cope with demand?

    The problem with most of these things, is most figures commonly available, are produced by those with vested interests, so things get manipulated/selectively quoted to suit the authors own targets.

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  • EvilmagsEvilmags Frets: 5158
    Moving emissions from urban areas to rural ones, where their is more flora to deal with them is sensible. Natural Gas gives off water and CO2 and not much else. The priority has to be cleaner cities as they are where most people live. 
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  • prowlaprowla Frets: 4896
    So, it reduces pollution in the streets.

    I see that a few months back it was announced that renewables had produced more electricity than fossil & nuclear in the UK.
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 4901
    monofin said:
    Interesting that power stations are consuming more coal than ever to meet demand
    @monofin really?  I thought the opposite was true - do you have a source, please?  I'd like to know more about it.

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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7751
    I'm looking forward to the infrastructure being in place for hydrogen fuel cell cars.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 1948
    edited July 2017
    Nitefly said:
    monofin said:
    Interesting that power stations are consuming more coal than ever to meet demand
    @monofin really?  I thought the opposite was true - do you have a source, please?  I'd like to know more about it.

    Pretty sure this is the case in Germany right now. It's definitely the case in China.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/carboncounter.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/why-germanys-nuclear-phaseout-is-leading-to-more-coal-burning/amp/

    I read an article in the Economist recently on this subject. The power generation market in Germany is screwed, they have dumped Nuclear but renewables can't meet demand. Coal Fired power stations fill the gap but because you can't turn coal fired stations on and off in any practical sense they are burning coal / spewing out C02 regardless of demand. The market in Germany mandates that renewables are used to supply demand, so when it's windy, lots of power is produced and electricity companies / distribution networks are obliged to take it. Meanwhile the coal is still being burnt in readiness for when the wind drops.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    Electric cars are certainly the way forward, solar power is the way forward. Gonna take a fair while yet though as there are many obstacles to overcome ...... such as how do people without drives \ garages charge their car at home ?

    Elon Musk is the man to bring the future forward, his Gigafactory will reduce the cost of batteries, his Tesla cars have proved electric cars are just as fast as petrol cars (faster actually in acceleration ) ... 8 year warranty on the battery ... no oil change needed, no filters, no cam belt change, no particle filers or duel mass flywheels ... free charging at Supercharging points. 

    If I had the money I would honestly buy a Tesla now and there will come a time when only the rich will drive petrol cars
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    I've long since wondered: Are we just moving emissions from cars to power stations?
    Yes. But you have to factor in battery production. I'm not sure electric cars are the answer. How would you charge your car in an average urban environment? The cost of installing charging points would be prohibitive and the UK's whole electrical infrastructure would need a major upgrade. No money - won't happen.

    Hydrogen fuel cells could be the answer. You refuel your car as you do now instead of petrol you use hydrogen.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • blobbblobb Frets: 2914
    mate of mine does these:

    https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/


    Feelin' Reelin' & Squeelin'
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 4901
    exocet said:
    Nitefly said:
    monofin said:
    Interesting that power stations are consuming more coal than ever to meet demand
    @monofin really?  I thought the opposite was true - do you have a source, please?  I'd like to know more about it.

    Pretty sure this is the case in Germany right now. It's definitely the case in China.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/carboncounter.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/why-germanys-nuclear-phaseout-is-leading-to-more-coal-burning/amp/

    I read an article in the Economist recently on this subject. The power generation market in Germany is screwed, they have dumped Nuclear but renewables can't meet demand. Coal Fired power stations fill the gap but because you can't turn coal fired stations on and off in any practical sense they are burning coal / spewing out C02 regardless of demand. The market in Germany mandates that renewables are used to supply demand, so when it's windy, lots of power is produced and electricity companies / distribution networks are obliged to take it. Meanwhile the coal is still being burnt in readiness for when the wind drops.
    Ah, very interesting.  I must admit I was only thinking about UK, where it seems we are using less coal than ever:

    https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/chart/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb

    Why was Germany so determined to get rid of all nuclear power by 2022 - was it an environmental policy?
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  • hotpothotpot Frets: 845
    Fretwired said:
    I've long since wondered: Are we just moving emissions from cars to power stations?
    Yes. But you have to factor in battery production. I'm not sure electric cars are the answer. How would you charge your car in an average urban environment? The cost of installing charging points would be prohibitive and the UK's whole electrical infrastructure would need a major upgrade. No money - won't happen.

    Hydrogen fuel cells could be the answer. You refuel your car as you do now instead of petrol you use hydrogen.
    I was watching an episode of 'Fully charged' the other week about turning lamp standards into charging points as the electricity is already there and wouldn't need the pavement digging up.



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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    hotpot said:
    Fretwired said:
    I've long since wondered: Are we just moving emissions from cars to power stations?
    Yes. But you have to factor in battery production. I'm not sure electric cars are the answer. How would you charge your car in an average urban environment? The cost of installing charging points would be prohibitive and the UK's whole electrical infrastructure would need a major upgrade. No money - won't happen.

    Hydrogen fuel cells could be the answer. You refuel your car as you do now instead of petrol you use hydrogen.
    I was watching an episode of 'Fully charged' the other week about turning lamp standards into charging points as the electricity is already there and wouldn't need the pavement digging up.



    Won't work. A road near me has probably one lamp standard per 8 cars parked in the street. The cables would have to be very long. It won't work.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 1948
    Nitefly said:
    exocet said:
    Nitefly said:
    monofin said:
    Interesting that power stations are consuming more coal than ever to meet demand
    @monofin really?  I thought the opposite was true - do you have a source, please?  I'd like to know more about it.

    Pretty sure this is the case in Germany right now. It's definitely the case in China.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/carboncounter.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/why-germanys-nuclear-phaseout-is-leading-to-more-coal-burning/amp/

    I read an article in the Economist recently on this subject. The power generation market in Germany is screwed, they have dumped Nuclear but renewables can't meet demand. Coal Fired power stations fill the gap but because you can't turn coal fired stations on and off in any practical sense they are burning coal / spewing out C02 regardless of demand. The market in Germany mandates that renewables are used to supply demand, so when it's windy, lots of power is produced and electricity companies / distribution networks are obliged to take it. Meanwhile the coal is still being burnt in readiness for when the wind drops.
    Ah, very interesting.  I must admit I was only thinking about UK, where it seems we are using less coal than ever:

    https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/chart/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb

    Why was Germany so determined to get rid of all nuclear power by 2022 - was it an environmental policy?
    Fukushima incident was the final nail in the coffin but pretty sure that the nuclear waste / clean up was also a big concern even without a disaster occurring.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    Fretwired said:
    I've long since wondered: Are we just moving emissions from cars to power stations?
    Yes. But you have to factor in battery production. I'm not sure electric cars are the answer. How would you charge your car in an average urban environment? The cost of installing charging points would be prohibitive and the UK's whole electrical infrastructure would need a major upgrade. No money - won't happen.

    Hydrogen fuel cells could be the answer. You refuel your car as you do now instead of petrol you use hydrogen.
    I think ultra capacitor technology in tandem with LION cells could be the answer ...... a car has the surface area to potentially accept and charge thousands of Farads in a very short time .... shorter than it would take you to fill your petrol tank ....... then the Ultra capacitors charge the LION cells with no external cables needed. 

    The Tesla Model 3 is out soon which is hopefully the game changer, it's priced at around $35, 000, does 0 to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds and has a range of 215 miles.    .... It will do that 215 miles on less than a tenner of electric and won't burn any oil, or wear on the clutch. You can see that being a hit with taxi drivers

    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • not_the_djnot_the_dj Frets: 7306
    Danny1969 said:


    The Tesla Model 3 is out soon which is hopefully the game changer, it's priced at around $35, 000, does 0 to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds and has a range of 215 miles.    .... It will do that 215 miles on less than a tenner of electric and won't burn any oil, or wear on the clutch. You can see that being a hit with taxi drivers

    Impressive specs, but it's the recharge time that'd be crucial as well. 
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  • monofinmonofin Frets: 1118
    edited July 2017
    @nitefly I'm on holiday at the moment so cant access any info but.... Coal has been rising sharply in price due to increased eu demand (incl uk). Yes, the level is much lower than it was in the past but it I increasing again because the others can't keep up with demand. There's another issue. A large gas storage facility"Rough" has been permanently closed, it will be interesting to see what this does to the generation mix in the winter
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  • danodano Frets: 1568
    Britain will mess this up. We never have a government strong enough to deliver this level of project.

    23 years to put in all the infrastructure for charging points and add more cabling to the national grid to distribute all that electricity.  Plus building a significant number of new power stations to provide all the electricity. 

    Look at the mess that is HS2 and how much that is forecast to cost.

    Are we just shifting the position from exhaust emissions to power stations and all the rainforest we will have to chop down to mine the materials for the batteries.

    I don't belive the carbon footprint for a "proper" diesel / petrol car vs electric car, including their supply chains and operating life , is fully understood.

    Im in favour of it but it needs to be done properly.

    That's may view as a chartered electrical engineer.


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