Can I sue a dissolved company owner directly if they haven't used the LTD company name on invoices,

ToneControl

Someone owes me a lot of cash (i.e. his Ltd company does), he liquidated his Ltd company, and hopes to avoid paying me

but checking the old documents, many are in the name of other companies, that he is nothing to do with, or where they don't exist at all, or missing the "Ltd" off the end

Surely I can sue him personally when he has sent me invoices from non-existent companies, with no "trading as" declarations ?

Iamnobody

I don't know. But have you thought about selling the debt to a violent biker gang?!

Fretwired

Yes. Are you owed more than £550? If so I can put you on to a legal guy who has a track record in sqeezing cash out of people.

ToneControl

I've asked the solicitor we've used for years for family stuff to look into it, who thinks the answer is yes, but no definite answer yet, I thought some of you guys might have seen this before. 

gubble

Yes, this is something I deal with a lot in my professional life.

It sounds like you can prove that your contract was not with the Ltd entity and therefore you can pursue him as an individual.

First step I would do is to contact the liquidators who are dealing with the Ltd company and ask them to look into his affairs as a director running the company as you suspect everything may not be above board. It would be interesting to know if you are listed as a creditor on their list.

My most recent case was someone who claimed they were Ltd despite completing contracts clearly stating they were a sole trader. That ended up costing them dearly.

ToneControl

gubble said:

Yes, this is something I deal with a lot in my professional life.

It sounds like you can prove that your contract was not with the Ltd entity and therefore you can pursue him as an individual.

First step I would do is to contact the liquidators who are dealing with the Ltd company and ask them to look into his affairs as a director running the company as you suspect everything may not be above board. It would be interesting to know if you are listed as a creditor on their list.

My most recent case was someone who claimed they were Ltd despite completing contracts clearly stating they were a sole trader. That ended up costing them dearly.

The guy has declared himself bankrupt too, then as soon as that expired last summer, he spent somewhere between £30k and £50k on extending his house, which I believe is in his name, and buying expensive vehicles

What are my chances of getting cash back from him?

munckee

Ask your legal guy about an action against him for breach of duty as a director by trading with you knowing he couldn't pay. Then limited liability would be irrelevant. 

If he holds directors and officers insurance it may pay even if he has no assets,although they may not pay the claim due to a deliberate act. 

Winny_Pooh

ToneControl said:

gubble said:

Yes, this is something I deal with a lot in my professional life.

It sounds like you can prove that your contract was not with the Ltd entity and therefore you can pursue him as an individual.

First step I would do is to contact the liquidators who are dealing with the Ltd company and ask them to look into his affairs as a director running the company as you suspect everything may not be above board. It would be interesting to know if you are listed as a creditor on their list.

My most recent case was someone who claimed they were Ltd despite completing contracts clearly stating they were a sole trader. That ended up costing them dearly.

The guy has declared himself bankrupt too, then as soon as that expired last summer, he spent somewhere between £30k and £50k on extending his house, which I believe is in his name, and buying expensive vehicles

What are my chances of getting cash back from him?

Technically you can't chase him for past debt but it sounds like he had not made a full declaration to the official receiver. Is he on the insolvency register as an individual? Bankruptcy can be reversed if having failed to declare assets, but it depends if anyone in authority is arsed. 

ToneControl

Winny_Pooh said:

ToneControl said:

gubble said:

Yes, this is something I deal with a lot in my professional life.

It sounds like you can prove that your contract was not with the Ltd entity and therefore you can pursue him as an individual.

First step I would do is to contact the liquidators who are dealing with the Ltd company and ask them to look into his affairs as a director running the company as you suspect everything may not be above board. It would be interesting to know if you are listed as a creditor on their list.

My most recent case was someone who claimed they were Ltd despite completing contracts clearly stating they were a sole trader. That ended up costing them dearly.

The guy has declared himself bankrupt too, then as soon as that expired last summer, he spent somewhere between £30k and £50k on extending his house, which I believe is in his name, and buying expensive vehicles

What are my chances of getting cash back from him?

Technically you can't chase him for past debt but it sounds like he had not made a full declaration to the official receiver. Is he on the insolvency register as an individual? Bankruptcy can be reversed if having failed to declare assets, but it depends if anyone in authority is arsed. 

I suspect he has hidden cash and the house
How do I find his insolvency details after the 6 months since it expired has passed? (they take people off the online register after 6 months, and I did not know he had been declared insolvent in time to check)

Winny_Pooh

Stays on here indefinitely 
https://m.thegazette.co.uk/insolvency

fretmeister

I can't add anything to the above but I can say with confidence...

Stop asking your family solicitor to help.

Get a commercial solicitor.

Be aware that if the debt is under £10,000 then your ability to recover legals fees is exceptionally limited - Sub £10K claims usually go into the Small Claims Track. It would be easy for the legal fees to exceed the debt. Unless of course you do it yourself as is really intended in the Small Claims Track.

If the matter is complex enough (and if there has been sufficient attempts to hide assets with possible breach of director duties etc etc) then under the general court management powers the court can stick it in the Multi-Track where if you win you can get a good portion of your costs back (not all - never all), BUT the flip side is that if you lose you will be ordered to pay the defendant's costs.

"Going behind the veil" of a Ltd company takes time and good investigations. That costs money.

Make sure you do a proper benefit analysis in regard to the debt and the costs you might pay in pursuing it.

The current mantra in costs recovery is now "Proportionality trumps necessity" - that means even if you absolutely needed to do a thing to win and there was no way to win without it, if that thing costs too much you won't get it back, or it will be reduced massively.

Basically don't blow £20,000 in costs pursuing a £10,000 debt. That £20,000 is likely to be halved when the costs are awarded and your net benefit of the process will be nil. Even if the defendant is only ordered to pay half your costs you still have to pay your lawyers all of it.

Danny1969

The above advice from @fretmeister is spot on and something I've had experience with. Be careful, you can't take the knickers off a bare arse as the Irish say and someone appearing to have money is no indication they have money. You can spend a lot of dough achieving nothing except you owe legal fees 

fretmeister

Danny1969 said:

The above advice from @fretmeister is spot on and something I've had experience with. Be careful, you can't take the knickers off a bare arse as the Irish say and someone appearing to have money is no indication they have money. You can spend a lot of dough achieving nothing except you owe legal fees 

Costs Litigation is what I do for a living.

It's quite worrying how often dabblers (like family lawyers trying to do a bit of commercial litigation - or indeed any lawyer acting outside their usual practice area) get it completely wrong in their advice to clients about the costs risks.

So always go to a specialist. Stay away from dabblers!

As a tenuous link to the main purpose of this forum - Dr Brian May is the subject of a rather "famous" costs case on proportionality... when he spend about £208,000.00 on a dispute that settled for only £25,000...


https://www.12kbw.co.uk/broadswords-rapiers-proportionality-light-may-v-wavell-group-limited/


Basically - BM spent £208,000 on a nuisance dispute with a neighbour. He won and it settled for £25,000

At a Costs Assessment (when every task done is reviewed) the total costs claim of £208,000 was reduced to about £99,000 based on what was absolutely necessary.

Then the Costs Judge thought £100K on a £25K dispute was still too much and slashed it to £35,000 (Yup = BM won £25,000 and was £173,000 down on costs)


It was appealed of course.

At the appeal the slashing down bit was partially reversed - and put back to £75K. He still owed his solicitors £208,000 and the defendant was only ordered to pay £75K towards it. 

Adding the £25K damages to the costs = £100,000. Meaning that there was no monetary benefit to the winner (May) and in fact he was down £108K at the end.

OF COURSE, somethings are not about money alone. Sometimes you need to spend a million over something that has an immediate value of £8.50... because the decision itself protects your IP rights, or your company for the next 100 years etc etc.

Whether Mr May thought it was still worth it (Defendant would have had to pay their own lawyers too so maybe they would be more careful in the future?) in stopping the disruption to his home is something only he knows.

Strat_a_tat_tat

fretmeister said:

Danny1969 said:

The above advice from @fretmeister is spot on and something I've had experience with. Be careful, you can't take the knickers off a bare arse as the Irish say and someone appearing to have money is no indication they have money. You can spend a lot of dough achieving nothing except you owe legal fees 

Costs Litigation is what I do for a living.

It's quite worrying how often dabblers (like family lawyers trying to do a bit of commercial litigation - or indeed any lawyer acting outside their usual practice area) get it completely wrong in their advice to clients about the costs risks.

So always go to a specialist. Stay away from dabblers!

As a tenuous link to the main purpose of this forum - Dr Brian May is the subject of a rather "famous" costs case on proportionality... when he spend about £208,000.00 on a dispute that settled for only £25,000...


https://www.12kbw.co.uk/broadswords-rapiers-proportionality-light-may-v-wavell-group-limited/


Basically - BM spent £208,000 on a nuisance dispute with a neighbour. He won and it settled for £25,000

At a Costs Assessment (when every task done is reviewed) the total costs claim of £208,000 was reduced to about £99,000 based on what was absolutely necessary.

Then the Costs Judge thought £100K on a £25K dispute was still too much and slashed it to £35,000 (Yup = BM won £25,000 and was £173,000 down on costs)


It was appealed of course.

At the appeal the slashing down bit was partially reversed - and put back to £75K. He still owed his solicitors £208,000 and the defendant was only ordered to pay £75K towards it. 

Adding the £25K damages to the costs = £100,000. Meaning that there was no monetary benefit to the winner (May) and in fact he was down £108K at the end.

OF COURSE, somethings are not about money alone. Sometimes you need to spend a million over something that has an immediate value of £8.50... because the decision itself protects your IP rights, or your company for the next 100 years etc etc.

Whether Mr May thought it was still worth it (Defendant would have had to pay their own lawyers too so maybe they would be more careful in the future?) in stopping the disruption to his home is something only he knows.

Alll good stuff to know... but I guess a few £100k is just a 'round of drinks' if you live in Holland Park.

fretmeister

Obviously he can afford it - but that's not really the point.

Everyone still wants value for money, especially on things they don't really want to buy but are forced into it by the actions of others.

It's not completely scaleable - there are somethings that cost even when the disputed sum is low.

So in an injury claim of about £30,000 where liability and monetary value are fully disputed the costs will exceed it and the courts won't really mind as long as it's not a stupid amount. You still need expert reports, maybe CT or MRI scans etc and as long as you have picked a commercially average provider then it's ok. But at the same time if 10 experts quote £1000 for a report and 1 quotes £10,000, you don't pick the £10K one unless you have very good reasons. You just won't recover the additional £9000. Same with the Court Fees - they are set by government at various stages of the process. The claimant has no choice but to pay them. So generally they are outside of the proportionality arguments. They aren't just a necessity - they are genuinely unavoidable.

As you can imagine it's a deep, complex and really quite dull subject!  

ToneControl

fretmeister said:

I can't add anything to the above but I can say with confidence...

Stop asking your family solicitor to help.

Get a commercial solicitor.

Be aware that if the debt is under £10,000 then your ability to recover legals fees is exceptionally limited - Sub £10K claims usually go into the Small Claims Track. It would be easy for the legal fees to exceed the debt. Unless of course you do it yourself as is really intended in the Small Claims Track.

If the matter is complex enough (and if there has been sufficient attempts to hide assets with possible breach of director duties etc etc) then under the general court management powers the court can stick it in the Multi-Track where if you win you can get a good portion of your costs back (not all - never all), BUT the flip side is that if you lose you will be ordered to pay the defendant's costs.

"Going behind the veil" of a Ltd company takes time and good investigations. That costs money.

Make sure you do a proper benefit analysis in regard to the debt and the costs you might pay in pursuing it.

The current mantra in costs recovery is now "Proportionality trumps necessity" - that means even if you absolutely needed to do a thing to win and there was no way to win without it, if that thing costs too much you won't get it back, or it will be reduced massively.

Basically don't blow £20,000 in costs pursuing a £10,000 debt. That £20,000 is likely to be halved when the costs are awarded and your net benefit of the process will be nil. Even if the defendant is only ordered to pay half your costs you still have to pay your lawyers all of it.

It's probably £10k to £20k

Does it change anything if he committed fraud as part of this?
I had solid evidence that he did this.

darthed1981

ToneControl said:

It's probably £10k to £20k

Does it change anything if he committed fraud as part of this?
I had solid evidence that he did this.

I don't know if he committed fraud or not, but he sounds like a right c**t.

fretmeister

ToneControl said:

fretmeister said:

I can't add anything to the above but I can say with confidence...

Stop asking your family solicitor to help.

Get a commercial solicitor.

Be aware that if the debt is under £10,000 then your ability to recover legals fees is exceptionally limited - Sub £10K claims usually go into the Small Claims Track. It would be easy for the legal fees to exceed the debt. Unless of course you do it yourself as is really intended in the Small Claims Track.

If the matter is complex enough (and if there has been sufficient attempts to hide assets with possible breach of director duties etc etc) then under the general court management powers the court can stick it in the Multi-Track where if you win you can get a good portion of your costs back (not all - never all), BUT the flip side is that if you lose you will be ordered to pay the defendant's costs.

"Going behind the veil" of a Ltd company takes time and good investigations. That costs money.

Make sure you do a proper benefit analysis in regard to the debt and the costs you might pay in pursuing it.

The current mantra in costs recovery is now "Proportionality trumps necessity" - that means even if you absolutely needed to do a thing to win and there was no way to win without it, if that thing costs too much you won't get it back, or it will be reduced massively.

Basically don't blow £20,000 in costs pursuing a £10,000 debt. That £20,000 is likely to be halved when the costs are awarded and your net benefit of the process will be nil. Even if the defendant is only ordered to pay half your costs you still have to pay your lawyers all of it.

It's probably £10k to £20k

Does it change anything if he committed fraud as part of this?
I had solid evidence that he did this.

Probably.

If there is sufficient evidence then a trial would take more than 1 day and that usually means allocation to the multi track where you have the opportunity to gets a costs award if you win.

57Deluxe

Go on the Dark Web - lots of options there!

ToneControl

fretmeister said:

ToneControl said:

fretmeister said:

I can't add anything to the above but I can say with confidence...

Stop asking your family solicitor to help.

Get a commercial solicitor.

Be aware that if the debt is under £10,000 then your ability to recover legals fees is exceptionally limited - Sub £10K claims usually go into the Small Claims Track. It would be easy for the legal fees to exceed the debt. Unless of course you do it yourself as is really intended in the Small Claims Track.

If the matter is complex enough (and if there has been sufficient attempts to hide assets with possible breach of director duties etc etc) then under the general court management powers the court can stick it in the Multi-Track where if you win you can get a good portion of your costs back (not all - never all), BUT the flip side is that if you lose you will be ordered to pay the defendant's costs.

"Going behind the veil" of a Ltd company takes time and good investigations. That costs money.

Make sure you do a proper benefit analysis in regard to the debt and the costs you might pay in pursuing it.

The current mantra in costs recovery is now "Proportionality trumps necessity" - that means even if you absolutely needed to do a thing to win and there was no way to win without it, if that thing costs too much you won't get it back, or it will be reduced massively.

Basically don't blow £20,000 in costs pursuing a £10,000 debt. That £20,000 is likely to be halved when the costs are awarded and your net benefit of the process will be nil. Even if the defendant is only ordered to pay half your costs you still have to pay your lawyers all of it.

It's probably £10k to £20k

Does it change anything if he committed fraud as part of this?
I had solid evidence that he did this.

Probably.

If there is sufficient evidence then a trial would take more than 1 day and that usually means allocation to the multi track where you have the opportunity to gets a costs award if you win.

does anyone do "no win, no fee" for that kind of work?

fretmeister

Not that I know of.

The nature of commercial work means that CFA (Conditional Fee Agreement- the proper name for no win no fee) are often not offered as the risks are too high, and the unique nature of each case means there can’t be a book of similar cases (like rear end shunt road traffic) to spread the risk.

You can ask though. No harm in that.