University tuition fees are disgracefully high

ToneControl

mart said:

You've said this before, and you've had it pointed out to you before that you're mistaken, working from a misguided notion of what universities do.

Speaking for my own department, our students receive around 340 contact hours per year, and they are also set about 70-80 pieces of formative assessment, which we mark and provide feedback on, and then they have 8 exams which we mark. those marks are also checked externally, and the whole programme of study assessed every few years to ensure it meets acceptable standards so that the students' achievements can be confirmed by a degree that employers understand and trust. Compare with someone who gets 1-1 tuition, and tries to get a job based on "I don't have any certificates, but I've had 1000 hours of private tuition".

And that's without getting into the broader support that helps them when they're struggling to remember why they should study, or when their parents have just divorced and they're struggling with everything, or any number of other scenarios. 

So doing your sums based on just 240 contact hours alone is way off the mark.

More importantly, I don't know of anyone able or willing to provide 1-1 tuition at university level beyond first year. Those with the necessary level of skills and expertise are more gainfully employed elsewhere and wouldn't want to bother doing tuition.

I'm not saying that just getting 1-1 tuition is an ideal alternative, I'm pointing out that it's ridiculous that the costs could be similar

search google for hours per week:
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1225406
quotes:

BA English - 
8 hours for the first two years, 6 hours in the third year (because I took the dissertation option)

~9 hours overall...
I do some reading outside lectures, do the work for tutorials and such...probably don't do enough but most of the first year for Economics has been revision 

Thirteen hours timetabled, then I do another fifteen to twenty hours spread across the week evenings (weekends are me-time ) and, over the course of the week, I do an optional six hours additional lab practice ... so about thirty-four to thirty-nine hours per week.

18 x 50 min lectures per fortnight
5 x 3 hour labs (some don't take the entire 3 hours, some take slightly longer) per fortnight
2 x 1 hour tutorials per fortnight

So that's 32 hours each fortnight. Average 16 hours contact time per week. We're told we're supposed to be doing 40 hours a week, so you can safely assume the majority of the year do a total of 16 hours work each week.

Depends on your course, I had around 18 hours/week but I'm third year Law.. (I don't have a dissertation which is why there's so many hours)

When I was at Birmingham I had: 
- 12 hours lectures each week
- 3 hours classes each fortnight 
which = not really a lot for my 3 grand a year!

Well the official line for each of my modules are from 90 to 150 hours in total for one, Palaeontology & Earth History:
-24 hours of lectures
-24 hours of practical work (done in the same after the lecture & is extra)
-8 hour field expedition
-30 hours directed study (IE homework & coursework)
-64 hours independent study (reading around the subject and revision)
So 150hrs over one semester

so 8 hours is the min, 9 to 12 seems common. Certainly tech subjects use more. This is reflecting in international fees for these courses relative to humanities degrees

there's plenty of people who have post grad degrees who would happily tutor for £40 an hour
AFAIK there are ones who will also write  your dissertation

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

Too many people go to university who aren't fit for the rigours of academic life. Bring back polytechnics and fund further education colleges better. The number of universities should be cut and the student numbers - you shouldn't need a degree to become an accountant - that way we could return to the grant system that was in place when I studied.

I agree with all this

ToneControl

joeyowen said:

I'm on my mobile so this is short reply. 

I'm a lecturer. If you look at work against salary. It isn't desirable. But I love my job. Unis and other providers are making redundancies every year. And there are courses we are dropping because we don't have the staff. We are also expected to invest in all the latest hardware and software, which you don't want to know the figure for the licences we need. And the amount of varied software we need is phenomenal. 

I'm happy to admit that entry requirements are perhaps lowering to help recover costs, but I'm open for any suggestions on how else to do it? 

Even our highest paid principles etc, are earning much less that private equivalent jobs. 

So, in short, where can we save money or how can we earn more? Tory government? Nope! 

top jobs in unis pay silly money
Profs on £100k,  head of the smallest unis on £290k

Evilmags

Depends what you study. Arts and social sciences criss subsidise science, engineering and medicine.  Running laboritories ect is very expensive. A doctor's training is a lot more than 9,000 as is anyone doing labs.  

ToneControl

Sporky said:

ToneControl said:

(it's over £38 per hour for being in each lecture, by my calculations - 8 hours for 30 weeks)

What degree did you base your calculations on?

My degree had about 30 hours of lectures a week, plus 4 hours of labs, plus assignments and typically an hour or so with your assigned tutor as well.

humanities, many are 8 or 9 hours a week, then a reading list. 
An absolutely disgraceful ripoff

I think maths is about 12 hours + 3 hours tutorials

joeyowen

ToneControl said:

top jobs in unis pay silly money
Profs on £100k,  head of the smallest unis on £290k

Firstly, I know some professors, and their wage is nothing like that, care to give source (not meant cocky, honestly curious).  Also, money isn't the reason, they still turn up to work in banged up old Fords etc...

If you factor in how much work goes into being a Prof?
Bsc-3yrs
Msc-1yr
Phs-3yrs
Prof then comes after enough contributions to the field - many more yrs...

I have no objection at all to the money they are on, as the ones I know are amongst the smartest people I have ever met, who are dedicating their life to advancements in their field.

All this to teach students who want a get rich quick scheme so they don't have to work for most their life.  Yep, we love our jobs.

However, I don't actually have an agenda.  Honestly, I hated paying for my Degree and I have massive sympathy for anyone nowadays who has to pay even more.  I struggle however to place the blame on the Uni's.  I'm honestly only posting to give some opinion from the other side.

ToneControl

joeyowen said:

ToneControl said:

top jobs in unis pay silly money
Profs on £100k,  head of the smallest unis on £290k

Firstly, I know some professors, and their wage is nothing like that, care to give source (not meant cocky, honestly curious).  Also, money isn't the reason, they still turn up to work in banged up old Fords etc...

If you factor in how much work goes into being a Prof?
Bsc-3yrs
Msc-1yr
Phs-3yrs
Prof then comes after enough contributions to the field - many more yrs...

I have no objection at all to the money they are on, as the ones I know are amongst the smartest people I have ever met, who are dedicating their life to advancements in their field.

All this to teach students who want a get rich quick scheme so they don't have to work for most their life.  Yep, we love our jobs.

However, I don't actually have an agenda.  Honestly, I hated paying for my Degree and I have massive sympathy for anyone nowadays who has to pay even more.  I struggle however to place the blame on the Uni's.  I'm honestly only posting to give some opinion from the other side.

the source was the job advert at an old poly that I applied for last year: salary up to £103k

there's little altruism visible in professors I have worked with, it's a good job, highly respected and well paid. Consultancy work can add massively to the total earned in subjects that are in demand

I also worked with several profs who were piss-poor and not very bright, and should never had been given a senior lecturer role

joeyowen

ToneControl said:

the source was the job advert at an old poly that I applied for last year: salary up to £103k

there's little altruism visible in professors I have worked with, it's a good job, highly respected and well paid. Consultancy work can add massively to the total earned in subjects that are in demand

I also worked with several profs who were piss-poor and not very bright, and should never had been given a senior lecturer role

ha, as if that isn't true for most workplaces

Food for thought, is that some (maybe most) Unis make much more money from research and grants than they do from undergrads.  Although, that was pre brexit.  Someone I know, just secure a 2.something mil grant for a lot of studies.  That equates to yearssss worth of students, and that was just one member of staff.

Fair enough on the salary though, that is high.  But my personal opinion is that if you are capable of getting a prof job at top of scale, you deserve a good wedge.

Funkfingers

ToneControl said:

I think most Unis are completely ripping off students

mart said:

You've said this before and you've had it pointed out to you before that you're mistaken, working from a misguided notion of what universities do.

At the end of the day, there are two options. Either you want a degree level qualification enough to pay for it or you manage without. 

The government decision to waive unpaid student loan balances is, at best, questionable. It just builds up a future tax burden for the generation currently attending university courses and for whom highly rewarding employment does not exist.

Myranda

ToneControl said:

I've said before that I think most Unis are completely ripping off students, you could get one-to-one tuition from a professional for similar hours to the lecture times, for the same yearly fees

(it's over £38 per hour for being in each lecture, by my calculations - 8 hours for 30 weeks)

There was a good Radio 4 piece on this today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b090vd49#play
play from 2:33:45

guitarfishbay said:

Does your calculation include the lecturer's time in researching their lectures, seminars, and marking?  And costs of running facilities, pensions etc.

One of the PhD students is an assistant lecturer - if he does a lecture he earns £55 an hour. Senior lecturers cost an awful lot more - just for the time they're in a lecture. Then there's marking coursework (and a 20,000 word dissertation from 100 students is a lot of reading, or 600 3,000 assignments in the first year). Exam marking, exam invigilation for other universities... 

Many universities rent their buildings etc...

Research is an odd one as it often times makes money...

Then on top of that many students will never pay back their loans. Until they're earning £21,000 a year they don't pay a penny and then they pay 9% on the money over £21,000 (so at £25,000 a year they pay just £360 a year).

University is expensive, but consider that student debt for three year degree here can be cheaper than a single year in the US - where on completion they must instantly begin paying back at maybe $1000 a month - don't pay and debt collectors turn up... 

ToneControl

joeyowen said:

ToneControl said:

the source was the job advert at an old poly that I applied for last year: salary up to £103k

there's little altruism visible in professors I have worked with, it's a good job, highly respected and well paid. Consultancy work can add massively to the total earned in subjects that are in demand

I also worked with several profs who were piss-poor and not very bright, and should never had been given a senior lecturer role

ha, as if that isn't true for most workplaces

Food for thought, is that some (maybe most) Unis make much more money from research and grants than they do from undergrads.  Although, that was pre brexit.  Someone I know, just secure a 2.something mil grant for a lot of studies.  That equates to yearssss worth of students, and that was just one member of staff.

Fair enough on the salary though, that is high.  But my personal opinion is that if you are capable of getting a prof job at top of scale, you deserve a good wedge.

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/providers/finances
the graph here says that Unis make 3 times as much from fees than from research



the Brexit issue is a very popular hobbyhorse amongst Uni researchers, but lots of reading on this last year revealed that the percentage of research funding awarded by the EU is very small, and that non-EU countries are involved in many of the projects anyway (e.g. Switzerland and Turkey) 

https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/uk-research-and-european-union/role-of-EU-in-funding-UK-research/how-does-eu-funding-compare-with-uk/
"EU research funding through Framework Programme 7 represented 3% of UK expenditure on research and development between 2007 and 2013"

https://fullfact.org/education/how-much-money-do-british-universities-get-eu/
"Research grants from 'EU sources' was 2.6% of universities' total income in 2013/14, according to the Higher Education Statistics Agency."

I would expect that the Uk govt could divert the fraction of the saved EU contributions to help the Unis if they wish

CabbageCat

Fretwired said:

CabbageCat said:

Fretwired said:

Snap said:

Fretwired said:

Too many people go to university who aren't fit for the rigours of academic life.

Based on what though? From what I can see, the fees make kids consider more if going to uni is the right thing to do, and if it is, it makes them think about the value of the course and subsequent degree. My daughter gets A level results this week, and quite a lot of her friends/year group are not going to uni, or are taking a year out to work and think what they want to do. And that's at an academic high performing school.

Based on the drop out rate before year two - around 7 per cent.

But so few pay the money back. My nephew's emigrated to Oz with his wife. He never paid his loan back in full. The government is just building up a huge debt that will never be repaid.

The debt presumably is repaid, just by the taxpayer not the person who borrowed it. I assume that there is less money per student in the university system now than there used to be (judging by the cost-cutting in recent years), it's just funded more by the people who use the system now and less by those who don't.

No it's not repaid - money from existing students keeps the repayments going, but the debt is just growing - £100 billion now and up to £200 billion in six years. There's a big black hole in that figure of loans that will never be repaid.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

It's not repaid? By the students or the taxpayer? So who loses out?

ToneControl

Myranda said:

ToneControl said:

I've said before that I think most Unis are completely ripping off students, you could get one-to-one tuition from a professional for similar hours to the lecture times, for the same yearly fees

(it's over £38 per hour for being in each lecture, by my calculations - 8 hours for 30 weeks)

There was a good Radio 4 piece on this today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b090vd49#play
play from 2:33:45

guitarfishbay said:

Does your calculation include the lecturer's time in researching their lectures, seminars, and marking?  And costs of running facilities, pensions etc.

One of the PhD students is an assistant lecturer - if he does a lecture he earns £55 an hour. Senior lecturers cost an awful lot more - just for the time they're in a lecture. Then there's marking coursework (and a 20,000 word dissertation from 100 students is a lot of reading, or 600 3,000 assignments in the first year). Exam marking, exam invigilation for other universities... 

Many universities rent their buildings etc...

Research is an odd one as it often times makes money...

Then on top of that many students will never pay back their loans. Until they're earning £21,000 a year they don't pay a penny and then they pay 9% on the money over £21,000 (so at £25,000 a year they pay just £360 a year).

University is expensive, but consider that student debt for three year degree here can be cheaper than a single year in the US - where on completion they must instantly begin paying back at maybe $1000 a month - don't pay and debt collectors turn up... 

not sure how this addresses my point: that UK unis charge too high fees (not for all subjects, but for many)

the loan mechanism is weird, if you take a useless degree and get a crap job, you pay nothing back - what is the point of that?

Lecturers salaries: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/higher-education-lecturer

• Starting salaries for higher education (HE) lecturers range from around £33,943 to £41,709.
• At senior lecturer level, you'll typically earn between £41,709 and £55,998.
• Salaries at professorial level can range from around £54,637 up to in excess of £107,244, depending on your level experience and managerial responsibility.

so, if you are getting 8 hours a week lectures, you are paying £38 an hour for them, which is the rate you pay for a ticket to see a top-name artist in an arena (i.e. £100 for 2.5 hours), yet the person giving the lecture, often to a large audience, is getting an ordinary professional salary of £40k to £55k, which is about £35 an hour
can you see my point? you're paying rock concert prices to attend a lecture where the presenter is paid the same as a plumber

Imagine you went to a local pub to see a local band, and they asked you for £100 to get in, this is the equivalent scenario: yes the band needs to practice and acquire gear outside that 2.5 hours, the pub needs to pay for bills, but you would laugh if you were asked to pay £100 for a ticket

Fretwired

CabbageCat said:

Fretwired said:

CabbageCat said:

Fretwired said:

Snap said:

Fretwired said:

Too many people go to university who aren't fit for the rigours of academic life.

Based on what though? From what I can see, the fees make kids consider more if going to uni is the right thing to do, and if it is, it makes them think about the value of the course and subsequent degree. My daughter gets A level results this week, and quite a lot of her friends/year group are not going to uni, or are taking a year out to work and think what they want to do. And that's at an academic high performing school.

Based on the drop out rate before year two - around 7 per cent.

But so few pay the money back. My nephew's emigrated to Oz with his wife. He never paid his loan back in full. The government is just building up a huge debt that will never be repaid.

The debt presumably is repaid, just by the taxpayer not the person who borrowed it. I assume that there is less money per student in the university system now than there used to be (judging by the cost-cutting in recent years), it's just funded more by the people who use the system now and less by those who don't.

No it's not repaid - money from existing students keeps the repayments going, but the debt is just growing - £100 billion now and up to £200 billion in six years. There's a big black hole in that figure of loans that will never be repaid.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

It's not repaid? By the students or the taxpayer? So who loses out?

Tax payer.

CabbageCat

Fretwired said:

CabbageCat said:

Fretwired said:

CabbageCat said:

Fretwired said:

Snap said:

Fretwired said:

Too many people go to university who aren't fit for the rigours of academic life.

Based on what though? From what I can see, the fees make kids consider more if going to uni is the right thing to do, and if it is, it makes them think about the value of the course and subsequent degree. My daughter gets A level results this week, and quite a lot of her friends/year group are not going to uni, or are taking a year out to work and think what they want to do. And that's at an academic high performing school.

Based on the drop out rate before year two - around 7 per cent.

But so few pay the money back. My nephew's emigrated to Oz with his wife. He never paid his loan back in full. The government is just building up a huge debt that will never be repaid.

The debt presumably is repaid, just by the taxpayer not the person who borrowed it. I assume that there is less money per student in the university system now than there used to be (judging by the cost-cutting in recent years), it's just funded more by the people who use the system now and less by those who don't.

No it's not repaid - money from existing students keeps the repayments going, but the debt is just growing - £100 billion now and up to £200 billion in six years. There's a big black hole in that figure of loans that will never be repaid.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

It's not repaid? By the students or the taxpayer? So who loses out?

Tax payer.

So when you said "no" when I suggested it was the taxpayer who paid it you meant "yes".

Fretwired

CabbageCat said:

So when you said "no" when I suggested it was the taxpayer who paid it you meant "yes".

No I meant no .. the debt is growing .. £100 billion now and £200 billion in six years time based on projections from the Treasury - so it isn't being paid off. Ultimately the tax payer will be on hook unless the government writes it off or sells it at a heavily discounted price to another company which makes money collecting student loans. It's not sustainable.

axisus

I got given £450 a term to go to college. The hardships of the early 80s. 

ToneControl

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/university-tuition-fees-england-highest-world-compare-students-student-loan-calculator-a7654276.html

University tuition fees in England are now the highest in the world, new analysis has found.
The average annual cost of £9,188, makes it significantly more than higher education in the US, where the average student pays $9,410 (£7,518) per annum, according to the Student Loan Calculator website. 

CabbageCat

Fretwired said:

CabbageCat said:

So when you said "no" when I suggested it was the taxpayer who paid it you meant "yes".

No I meant no .. the debt is growing .. £100 billion now and £200 billion in six years time based on projections from the Treasury - so it isn't being paid off. Ultimately the tax payer will be on hook unless the government writes it off or sells it at a heavily discounted price to another company which makes money collecting student loans. It's not sustainable.

The budget runs at a deficit so nothing is being paid off - and there is an argument to say that it never has to as long as we are happy to pay the cost of borrowing.

But, as things stand, every pound of student debt that gets written off has to be funded by the taxpayer - which is like a halfway house between making students responsible for their debt and the old system where the taxpayer footed the whole bill.

Evilmags

They've already sold loads of it.  At around 10p in the pound. It then gets renegotiated to about 20p in the pound and sold on again. If a student holds out they will end up paying back a quarter of the total amount. 

Too many people go to university. 50% of the job market does not need graduates . Plumbers amd sparks earn more than teachers anyway