I've decided to quit being a mod..

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    Emp's lifeboat, created to fill the void when MR was being glitchy and shit, became a haven when MR upped and died. And then a beacon for those who were there to find our current home, and then spread the word.

    We do owe you a debt of gratitude Mr. Fab.

    Diolch :D
    Thank you.  Funny you should mention that....  I'd forgotten all about my temp forum until I was tidying up my password file the other day and found my details for it in there!
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24578
    Emp_Fab said:
    If you had abused that power then you'd have been called out for it a long time ago by the admins.You clearly haven't.
    It wasn't the admins or any abuse of power.  It was largely that I was getting pissed off with having my mod role thrown in my face by people I was having 'full and frank discussions' with on the forum.  I have repeatedly been accused of having 'friends' on the admin team protecting me from the rules that apply to everyone else, and of speaking in a manner 'unbecoming of a mod'.  I'm not going to change who I am in order to conform to somebody else's idea of how a moderator should behave whilst giving up my own time to do the job.  Screw that.  So here I am, slumming it with the riffraff standing shoulder to shoulder with my proletarian comrades.

    Long live the revolution !

    Yep. Sorry, that's what I was saying.

    I don't see how being a mod doesn't mean you can't be yourself. I don't agree with you half the time, but I do believe you have as much right as any of the rest of us to post whatever the hell opinions you like. 

    Broadly my "ashamed" comment was that we should all feel a bit ashamed that we have put you in a position where you have to do this - given your mod time was free and gratis and your opinion is as valid as anyone else.

    It's just a bloody Internet forum - the idea that there is a specific way that a mod should behave is frankly laughable and ridiculous.

    If anyone doesn't like how the mods behave they are more than welcome to go elsewhere having received a full refund
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    @Bridgehouse You could argue that if a forum sets itself up with a code of conduct and a mod team to enforce that code, then it's quite acceptable for the user base to call out a mod whose own posting behavior contradicts, or gets close to the edge of the code of conduct. I don't think it's ridiculous or laughable to expect a mod to follow the rules.

    Personally, I am amazed that anyone ever takes on the task of being a mod, it seems like quite a thankless one. I know I'd much rather be playing the guitar...

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  • We do owe you a debt of gratitude Mr. Fab.

    This.  :).
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    Emp_Fab said:
    If you had abused that power then you'd have been called out for it a long time ago by the admins.You clearly haven't.
    It wasn't the admins or any abuse of power.  It was largely that I was getting pissed off with having my mod role thrown in my face by people I was having 'full and frank discussions' with on the forum.  I have repeatedly been accused of having 'friends' on the admin team protecting me from the rules that apply to everyone else, and of speaking in a manner 'unbecoming of a mod'.  I'm not going to change who I am in order to conform to somebody else's idea of how a moderator should behave whilst giving up my own time to do the job.  Screw that.  So here I am, slumming it with the riffraff standing shoulder to shoulder with my proletarian comrades.

    Long live the revolution !


    Broadly my "ashamed" comment was that we should all feel a bit ashamed that we have put you in a position where you have to do this - given your mod time was free and gratis and your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
    What do you mean "we should all feel a bit ashamed "?  I'm feeling no shame for something which is nothing to do with me.  
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    Feel ashamed ya bastad!  G'wan.....  =)

    Thanks for the support @Bridgehouse, but you don't need to apologise on behalf of a tiny, tiny number of others that were contributing factors in my decision.  I don't hold anyone "responsible" for anything. It was my call, and at the end of the day, it's just the bloody Internet!  Who gives a shit whether I'm a mod or not!  I don't!
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    Emp_Fab said:
    Feel ashamed ya bastad!  G'wan.....  =)

    Thanks for the support @Bridgehouse, but you don't need to apologise on behalf of a tiny, tiny number of others that were contributing factors in my decision.  I don't hold anyone "responsible" for anything. It was my call, and at the end of the day, it's just the bloody Internet!  Who gives a shit whether I'm a mod or not!  I don't!


    NEVER!!!!!!!!  :-P

    Nah, I think it's shitty that you were hassled enough to come to this decision.  As long as you're happy then that's that main thing.

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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24578
    Emp_Fab said:
    If you had abused that power then you'd have been called out for it a long time ago by the admins.You clearly haven't.
    It wasn't the admins or any abuse of power.  It was largely that I was getting pissed off with having my mod role thrown in my face by people I was having 'full and frank discussions' with on the forum.  I have repeatedly been accused of having 'friends' on the admin team protecting me from the rules that apply to everyone else, and of speaking in a manner 'unbecoming of a mod'.  I'm not going to change who I am in order to conform to somebody else's idea of how a moderator should behave whilst giving up my own time to do the job.  Screw that.  So here I am, slumming it with the riffraff standing shoulder to shoulder with my proletarian comrades.

    Long live the revolution !


    Broadly my "ashamed" comment was that we should all feel a bit ashamed that we have put you in a position where you have to do this - given your mod time was free and gratis and your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
    What do you mean "we should all feel a bit ashamed "?  I'm feeling no shame for something which is nothing to do with me.  
    Emp got prodded and poked a number of times for not acting "like a mod should" etc.. 

    Nobody called that out for what it is. We should have done. That is all.

    But, yeah, it's just a forum, just the internet etc.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    @Bridgehouse You could argue that if a forum sets itself up with a code of conduct and a mod team to enforce that code, then it's quite acceptable for the user base to call out a mod whose own posting behavior contradicts, or gets close to the edge of the code of conduct. I don't think it's ridiculous or laughable to expect a mod to follow the rules.

    Personally, I am amazed that anyone ever takes on the task of being a mod, it seems like quite a thankless one. I know I'd much rather be playing the guitar...

    See, now I agree with you here...  A mod, IMO, should be expected to behave according to the exact same rules that the other members are.  I don't believe they should be expected to adhere to some unspecified higher standard of behaviour.  Not least because it's unspecified and therefore open to accusations of failing to meet the (unknown) personal standards of the accuser!  You can never win trying to comply with unspecified rules!

    More importantly though, I don't believe a mod should be denied the same right of free speech that everyone else has.  I'm not (was not) just a "mod", I'm ME... warts n' all, who just happens to help delete spam, ban spammers, move posts to the correct place, etc etc.  If doing that means I can't be me, then fuck that for a game of soldiers!

    With that in mind, I don't believe I've ever breached the rules of this place. "Coming close to the edge" is bollocks - that's just arbitrarily blurring the rules so they fit with the accuser's unspecified standards thing again.  You either break the rules, or you don't break the rules.  Anything you say or do that does not break the rules is fine as far as I'm concerned.

    It pissed me off that some people, usually those I was disagreeing with over something, would play the 'mod standard' card, usually when their argument had fallen apart.  There IS no 'mod standard' except the arbitrary one in the accuser's head...  but... if you say something often enough, people will eventually begin to believe it.

    Anyhow...  let's just move on now.  It's a non-event on a little forum on the internet that's moving at 900 miles an hour, that's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned, a sun that is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see are moving at a million miles a day, in an outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour, of a galaxy we call the Milky Way.

    Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars
    It's a hundred thousand light-years side to side
    It bulges in the middle sixteen thousand light-years thick
    But out by us it's just three thousand light-years wide.

    We're thirty thousand light-years from Galactic Central Point
    We go 'round every two hundred million years
    And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
    In this amazing and expaaaanding universe.

    Our universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
    In all of the directions it can whiz
    As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know
    Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is.
    So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
    How amazingly unlikely is your birth
    And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space
    'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    Emp_Fab said:
    If you had abused that power then you'd have been called out for it a long time ago by the admins.You clearly haven't.
    It wasn't the admins or any abuse of power.  It was largely that I was getting pissed off with having my mod role thrown in my face by people I was having 'full and frank discussions' with on the forum.  I have repeatedly been accused of having 'friends' on the admin team protecting me from the rules that apply to everyone else, and of speaking in a manner 'unbecoming of a mod'.  I'm not going to change who I am in order to conform to somebody else's idea of how a moderator should behave whilst giving up my own time to do the job.  Screw that.  So here I am, slumming it with the riffraff standing shoulder to shoulder with my proletarian comrades.

    Long live the revolution !


    Broadly my "ashamed" comment was that we should all feel a bit ashamed that we have put you in a position where you have to do this - given your mod time was free and gratis and your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
    What do you mean "we should all feel a bit ashamed "?  I'm feeling no shame for something which is nothing to do with me.  
    Emp got prodded and poked a number of times for not acting "like a mod should" etc.. 

    Nobody called that out for what it is. We should have done. That is all.

    But, yeah, it's just a forum, just the internet etc.


    I'm sure people have called it out - how do you know they didn't?  Did you call it out?   

    FWIW look at my post in the "things you are too embarrassed to admit thread".

    Tarring everyone with the same brush is ridiculous and uncalled for. 

     

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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24578
    @bingefeller - I have never read a post criticising anyone for telling Emp he should act more like a mod. I haven't. I should have done, but I didn't. 

    This really is quite simple. Emp has quit because as far as some members are concerned he doesn't meet a set of imaginary mod criteria. 

    In my view that's a real shame, and it's a shame that as a community someone didn't say something to stop him from getting to this point.
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    Emp_Fab said:
    @Bridgehouse You could argue that if a forum sets itself up with a code of conduct and a mod team to enforce that code, then it's quite acceptable for the user base to call out a mod whose own posting behavior contradicts, or gets close to the edge of the code of conduct. I don't think it's ridiculous or laughable to expect a mod to follow the rules.

    Personally, I am amazed that anyone ever takes on the task of being a mod, it seems like quite a thankless one. I know I'd much rather be playing the guitar...

    More importantly though, I don't believe a mod should be denied the same right of free speech that everyone else has.  I'm not (was not) just a "mod", I'm ME... warts n' all, who just happens to help delete spam, ban spammers, move posts to the correct place, etc etc.  If doing that means I can't be me, then fuck that for a game of soldiers!

    With that in mind, I don't believe I've ever breached the rules of this place. "Coming close to the edge" is bollocks - that's just arbitrarily blurring the rules so they fit with the accuser's unspecified standards thing again.  You either break the rules, or you don't break the rules.  Anything you say or do that does not break the rules is fine as far as I'm concerned.

    It pissed me off that some people, usually those I was disagreeing with over something, would play the 'mod standard' card, usually when their argument had fallen apart.  There IS no 'mod standard' except the arbitrary one in the accuser's head...  but... if you say something often enough, people will eventually begin to believe it.


    I actually wasn't talking about you. Just responding to @Bridgehouse comment that expecting mods to follow the rules is laughable. There are plenty of websites were the moderation and mod interaction is insane, with the Mods sometimes being the worst posters around.

    That said, when one of the rules of the site is don't be a dick . I don't really think you have a hard and fast line, it's surely down to modmin opinion on a case by case basis. In any argument it's quite easy to look like a you are acting like a dick, even if that's not the intent. A few things have been moved or deleted on this this sight that I thought were nothing. Other things remain that I thought were a step too far. With 4 people modding, that's to be expected.

    I imagine you'll enjoy not having to do it.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    edited August 2017
    Emp_Fab said:
    If you had abused that power then you'd have been called out for it a long time ago by the admins.You clearly haven't.
    It wasn't the admins or any abuse of power.  It was largely that I was getting pissed off with having my mod role thrown in my face by people I was having 'full and frank discussions' with on the forum.  I have repeatedly been accused of having 'friends' on the admin team protecting me from the rules that apply to everyone else, and of speaking in a manner 'unbecoming of a mod'.  I'm not going to change who I am in order to conform to somebody else's idea of how a moderator should behave whilst giving up my own time to do the job.  Screw that.  So here I am, slumming it with the riffraff standing shoulder to shoulder with my proletarian comrades.

    Long live the revolution !


    Broadly my "ashamed" comment was that we should all feel a bit ashamed that we have put you in a position where you have to do this - given your mod time was free and gratis and your opinion is as valid as anyone else.
    What do you mean "we should all feel a bit ashamed "?  I'm feeling no shame for something which is nothing to do with me.  
    Emp got prodded and poked a number of times for not acting "like a mod should" etc.. 

    Nobody called that out for what it is. We should have done. That is all.

    But, yeah, it's just a forum, just the internet etc.
    You know what, no. Just no. Moderators of a forum should follow the forums codes of conduct. They shouldn't be running around encouraging a cull of chavs and labelling people misogynist and racist all the time. And I'd say that about ANY moderator - this isn't an Emp thing.

    But the BDAD rule is specifically designed to be applied when necessary, and to be kept in the box when it isn't it.

    The rules aren't really enforced here. Examples are made every now and then to keep people in line, but most of the time the rules aren't enforced. Sometimes that works in my favour, and sometimes it works in Emp's favour. Sometimes it even works in Bridgehouse's favour, and sometimes it works in nobodies favour.

    That's the environment we've nurtured here. Absolutely no sense in moaning about it now. Be the change you want to see in the world.

    And Emp's already said it was one minor factor. Don't rob him of the agency of deciding for himself what to do. Personal responsibility. I'm not responsible for him quitting his mod-job, and nor is anyone else.
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26450
    Drew_TNBD said:

    But the BDAD rule is specifically designed to be applied when necessary, and to be kept in the box when it isn't it.
    Yep.
    Drew_TNBD said:

    The rules aren't really enforced here. Examples are made every now and then to keep people in line, but most of the time the rules aren't enforced. Sometimes that works in my favour, and sometimes it works in Emp's favour. Sometimes it even works in Bridgehouse's favour, and sometimes it works in nobodies favour.
    Not exactly...the black-and-white rules are always enforced; it's just that they're the ones which tend to happen quietly (ie no big blow-up - banning spammers, making sure people behave themselves in the classifieds etc). The ones with a grey area tend to be a bit more context-sensitive, and we try to lean in the direction of being permissive where possible. As is inevitable with a modmin team who try to avoid sanctions, there's going to be a bit of inconsistency in the grey areas because it depends who's around at the time - if it's me, Jalapeno and Roland then the outcome might be different from me, monquixote and TTony.

    As a system, I think it works pretty well (for a system which includes human beans). It's not perfect, but it'll do and things are relatively harmonious most of the time.

    As an aside...it rarely ever works in the modmins' favour ;)
    <space for hire>
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    Actually, it is all Drew's fault.  Come to think of it, everything is Drew's fault.  Trump, Global warming, famine, North Korea, the Cuban Missile Crisis....  He's a complete cnut.

     :) 
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Emp_Fab said:
    Actually, it is all Drew's fault.  Come to think of it, everything is Drew's fault.  Trump, Global warming, famine, North Korea, the Cuban Missile Crisis....  He's a complete cnut.

     :) 
    "Here... what I can do is make a really snide and offensive post, and put a smilie at the end of it... that covers my back.... and then all the trolls can rock on up and wisdom that post, to put some concrete numbers behind those sentiments, thus doing my job for me... mwahahahahaha!"

    Obviously that's just a joke though. I don't really think that. :)
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26450
    Right, you know what? I'm going to come right out and say what Emp's too polite to - I'm guessing that he's not said this because he doesn't want to cause any bad feeling with the modmins (and there genuinely isn't any here), but there's too much being insinuated on this thread which isn't right.

    Some of you will think that what follows is unfair (in either direction), but please try to put that to one side for a bit.

    We on the modmin team have put ourselves in an awkward position, because there's a kind of unspoken rule that's crept up on us as time has gone on and the forum's grown. Effectively, we all self-censor ourselves quite a lot because sometimes - particularly to new members - our words carry more weight than others, given the position on here that we hold. That's not part of our guidelines or the community rules...it's just the way we've ended up.

    That's not meant to sound self-aggrandising, but it is the impression that a lot of folk seem to have.

    As a result, we can't be "normal" members on here...at least, it doesn't feel comfortable gettin' down in the muck (for want of a better phrase) on the more controversial topics, and particularly not starting them. A large part of this is because when any of us are involved in controversial threads which get really heated - particularly when we've started them ourselves with an unpopular viewpoint - it becomes much harder to moderate when stuff gets flagged, and we leave ourselves open to accusations of favouritism and protecting-our-own (this has happened more than once, so it's not just a hypothetical) and that's something which makes us feel Pretty Damn Squicky. Even worse, we tend to be more permissive when people give us abuse than when they do so to "normal" members, so as not to be accused of having an Old Boys Club or overreacting; believe me, it's very easy to overreact with the ol' trigger finger when somebody's hammering at you over some decision they didn't like.

    Really, I suppose there aren't a lot of upsides to being a modmin. It's why we don't recruit often, 'cos we don't want to impose that on anyone...

    Now, does this suck donkey balls for us? Sure it does. It means that we get to put in all the hard work of keeping this place humming along, but we can't use it to blow off steam the way everyone else can. Should it be this way? In an ideal world, no...but it is the reality of it.

    We had lots of discussions in our private area about it, and Emp said he didn't feel comfortable with that self-imposed restriction; I should stress that at no point was he told to leave the modmin team (in fact, I personally wish he hadn't), but I do totally understand why he's done it - this is a forum where people can just let off a bit of steam here and there, precisely because we don't place as many restrictions on discussion as a lot of forums. For a lot of us, this is the only place where we can have a good rant, and - within our implementation of Rule #1 - we see that as a valuable function for this place.

    There have been many times when I wished I could do the same thing as Emp, but that's even less of an option for me than even the other admins.

    Ultimately, at least from my perspective, Emp wasn't getting anything positive from being a mod, but I think he was feeling the restrictions more keenly than the rest of us. Viewed like that, it's pretty easy to understand his decision.

    @Emp_Fab - hope I'm not putting words in your mouth here. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :)
    <space for hire>
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    That's pretty much it.  I'm an olympic class ranter and I need to blow off steam perhaps more than most.  It makes it difficult to argue back when you're a mod.  I mean, it's not easy to tell if I'm calling you a twat personally or if you are an official twat.
    Maybe I could have had two logins ?  Emperor_Fabulous & Emperor_Modulus.  I could have moderated with one and called people twats with the other.  Best of both worlds really.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26450
    Emp_Fab said:
    That's pretty much it.  I'm an olympic class ranter and I need to blow off steam perhaps more than most.  It makes it difficult to argue back when you're a mod.  I mean, it's not easy to tell if I'm calling you a twat personally or if you are an official twat.
    Indeed. Just remember that the banhammer quite literally has your name on it ;)
    <space for hire>
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    If this means me and you are going to be able to spar more, then game on!! ;)
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