Recent events in Charlottesville.

Drew_TNBD

And this:

Babones

Crikey, somebody must have made a killing on flaming tiki torches.

So many holes/double standards in their argument.
 "This country was built by our forefathers." You mean the immigrants and jews that came over form Europe?
"The ethnic cleansing of America." Where have we seen that before? Oh yes the native American Indians that were killed, oppressed and had their land stolen.

Lewy

mellowsun said:

BigBearKris said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

I agree. There seem to be too much history, too much violence and no will to listen to the other side. 

Seriously, should anyone really be listening to people who shout 'Blood and soil', 'Heil Hitler' and 'Jews will not replace us' and trying to find some sort of middle ground or consensus with them?

Saying there is extremists on both sides is Trump's cop out, and serves to embolden the far right.

It saddens me that there seems to be some sort of implicit sympathy for the far right by some forum members here.

What serves to embolden the far right is when the left hands them on a silver platter hypocrisy after hypocrisy...enough to enable the far right to dismantle or discredit any argument the left might make. Classic example - the same people saying "punch a Nazi" are saying "understand why a jihadi is a jihadi". The same people. That is what emboldens the right. Here's another - Trump is recorded making revolting misogynistic remarks....he's the devil. Bill Clinton - acknowledged sex pest who actually DID that sort of shit...not a peep about that. What more ammo does the right need to close people off to any messages coming from the left?

And the left just cannot fucking help itself....Trump doesn't embolded people like Cantwell nearly as much.

Axe_meister

The trouble is these statues where erected in the 60s as a protest against the civil rights movement rather than being historical monuments. They should be moved into a museum.
Personally I think a line needs to be drawn in the sand (like in Germany) as to where free speech should end. i.e. displaying Nazi sympols and celebrating the Nazi regime.

aord43

Irrespective of the actions of the anti-Nazi protesters, nothing justifies driving a car into a crowd of people.  You can't just say "violence on both sides" or "extremists on both sides".  If person A holds views widely regarded as extreme, and person B does not hold those views and objects to or protests against them, does it make B an extremist? Even if he breaks the law doing so?  Not in my opinion, it just makes him a lawbreaker/criminal.

ourmaninthenorth

I disagree. Free speech is the greatest weapon we, as a species, have to resist the intellectually bankrupt. 

Let them say it, let it be answered. 

Drew_TNBD

Axe_meister said:

The trouble is these statues where erected in the 60s as a protest against the civil rights movement rather than being historical monuments. They should be moved into a museum.
Personally I think a line needs to be drawn in the sand (like in Germany) as to where free speech should end. i.e. displaying Nazi sympols and celebrating the Nazi regime.

That's not true dude. The Robert Lee statue at the centre of the Charlottesville disagreements was erected in 1924.

darthed1981

Drew_TNBD said:

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

Well the middle ground is not tearing down a significant historical statue under the false premise of it being an icon of racism and oppression. That's the middle ground. The extremist positions are that the statue is a symbol of patriotism, or that the statue is a symbol of hate and racism.

Not everyone there protesting against the removal of the statue was a KKK, Nazi (neo or otherwise), Trump supporter, or member of the alt-right.

When you group people together and rob them of their individuality, it gives you enough of a reason to rob them of their humanity. Which is going on on both sides from what I've seen.

In hindsight, leaving the statue there certainly would have saved a lot of trouble, at least in the short run.  Funnily enough I actually agree that leaving a statue of a southern civil war hero in place in no way shows support for racism.  The old civil war divide is still alive and well and it's like scratching a sore patch, you make it worse.  Just leave the damn thing there.

However, these underlying issues are still there.  I'm obviously referring to the content of the video and someone did not suddenly start hating Jews overnight because of one local council decision?

However the individuals who this whole cult of hate and bigotry grow around are the dangerous ones.  Those slogans are chillingly similar to those you will have heard behind any similar movement, including (and Godwin's law be damned) the Nazis.

The horrific consequences of this kind of hate fuelled views become accepted in the political spectrum is what people really fear.  Once they are accepted and become part of the debate, then they also become part of the potential solution, and that is not a world I want my children to grow up in.

Drew_TNBD

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

Well the middle ground is not tearing down a significant historical statue under the false premise of it being an icon of racism and oppression. That's the middle ground. The extremist positions are that the statue is a symbol of patriotism, or that the statue is a symbol of hate and racism.

Not everyone there protesting against the removal of the statue was a KKK, Nazi (neo or otherwise), Trump supporter, or member of the alt-right.

When you group people together and rob them of their individuality, it gives you enough of a reason to rob them of their humanity. Which is going on on both sides from what I've seen.

In hindsight, leaving the statue there certainly would have saved a lot of trouble, at least in the short run.  Funnily enough I actually agree that leaving a statue of a southern civil war hero in place in no way shows support for racism.  The old civil war divide is still alive and well and it's like scratching a sore patch, you make it worse.  Just leave the damn thing there.

However, these underlying issues are still there.  I'm obviously referring to the content of the video and someone did not suddenly start hating Jews overnight because of one local council decision?

However the individuals who this whole cult of hate and bigotry grow around are the dangerous ones.  Those slogans are chillingly similar to those you will have heard behind any similar movement, including (and Godwin's law be damned) the Nazis.

The horrific consequences of this kind of hate fuelled views become accepted in the political spectrum is what people really fear.  Once they are accepted and become part of the debate, then they also become part of the potential solution, and that is not a world I want my children to grow up in.

I absolutely agree dude.

What annoys me is that everyone is pretending that Black Lives Matter aren't chanting anti-white slogans and aren't attacking people in the streets based purely on their race. This stuff has been going on a couple of years now, and no-one really seemed to give a shit.

People like Yvette Falarca who is part of BAMN - By Any Means Necessary - are scary fucking people, and they seem to hide under the radar even though they're essentially violent cultists. And I just don't know why.

ourmaninthenorth

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

Drew_TNBD

And here we go. The pathetic lol stalker is back.

goldtop

aord43 said:

Irrespective of the actions of the anti-Nazi protesters, nothing justifies driving a car into a crowd of people.  You can't just say "violence on both sides" or "extremists on both sides".  If person A holds views widely regarded as extreme, and person B does not hold those views and objects to or protests against them, does it make B an extremist? Even if he breaks the law doing so?  Not in my opinion, it just makes him a lawbreaker/criminal.

We know that. Same with Dylann Roof. And Jeremy Christian.

If you actually think that's what's being said here, you're daft.

If you claim that's what's being said on this thread, you're part of the problem.

There most definitely is violence on both sides. Which is not a justification, but should be part of trying to understand the problem and the risks ahead.

Drew_TNBD

ourmaninthenorth said:

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

It's not Nazis we should worry about. It's militant fascist Islam

Veganic

The trouble with Identity politics - everyone has some skin in the game.


(Other than that I have tried and completely failed to understand what it is all about.)

CabbageCat

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

You are the middle ground (I assume). Drew wasn't talking about the half-way point between you and Hitler, he was talking about middle ground between the extremists on both sides.

The problem is that many people aren't imaginative enough to see extremists as people so can't (or, more accurately, won't) look at the world through their eyes. They just say that there must be something wrong with them - that they are broken (or "disturbed" if you like).

If I am going to meet someone in the middle I am going to have to move myself.

ourmaninthenorth

The outcomes will be violent..they always are. Depends which side of the line you're on as to how justified it is perceived to be.

Drew_TNBD

CabbageCat said:

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

You are the middle ground (I assume). Drew wasn't talking about the half-way point between you and Hitler, he was talking about middle ground between the extremists on both sides.

The problem is that many people aren't imaginative enough to see extremists as people so can't (or, more accurately, won't) look at the world through their eyes. They just say that there must be something wrong with them - that they are broken (or "disturbed" if you like).

If I am going to meet someone in the middle I am going to have to move myself.

Or at the very least listen to them.

Drew_TNBD

aord43 said:

Irrespective of the actions of the anti-Nazi protesters, nothing justifies driving a car into a crowd of people.  You can't just say "violence on both sides" or "extremists on both sides".  If person A holds views widely regarded as extreme, and person B does not hold those views and objects to or protests against them, does it make B an extremist? Even if he breaks the law doing so?  Not in my opinion, it just makes him a lawbreaker/criminal.

But these b's do have extremist views. They're just different ones that perfectly compliment the far right wing. It's basically horseshoe theory stuff.

ourmaninthenorth

Drew_TNBD said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

It's not Nazis we should worry about. It's militant fascist Islam

The nomenclature is interchangeable. The outcome the same. Resistance. 

mellowsun

Drew_TNBD said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

It's not Nazis we should worry about. It's militant fascist Islam

I'd say we need to worry about both.

The fact that you think we should listen to and try to understand Nazis makes me think you are a very dangerous person Mr Drew.

We've seen where previous attempts to listen to and understand Nazis have led to.