Recent events in Charlottesville.

randella

57Deluxe said:

http://static.allaguida.it/845X0/www/allaguida/it/img/dukes_of_hazzard_general_lee.jpg

No. No no no. Don't be dragging my childhood memories into this.  How could you?  Fast cars, absurd plotlines, Waylon Jennings ("Meanwhile, back in Hazzard County, Bo Duke an' Daisy gonna go see Boss Hogg...")?

Sacrilege. 

Evilmags

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

joneve

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

It's basically like there being a statue of Adolf Hitler in Berlin - there isn't obviously, because he was a racist, bigoted nut job and that would be absurd. And I'm sure any normal person wouldn't begrudge it being removed if there was one....They've simply kept their history in museums instead. 

Drew_TNBD

joneve said:

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

Incorrect. Most level headed people are arguing to just leave them in place. Moving them to museums is a compromise move with the extremists who want to pull them down and completely destroy them. This mentalism wont go away. This will go as far as Mt. Rushmore and other monuments and statues. And it will come to the UK too. Mark my words.

Evilmags

joneve said:

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

It's basically like there being a statue of Adolf Hitler in Berlin - there isn't obviously, because he was a racist, bigoted nut job and that would be absurd. And I'm sure any normal person wouldn't begrudge it being removed if there was one....They've simply kept their history in museums instead. 

That makes the very lazy and not entirely true assumption that the Civil war was entirely fought overy slavery. It also ignores Lee''s role in post war reconciliation, education and preventing retribution upon former slaves. Lee was a general, not an idealoge or political leader and led a long and complex life. Simplifying him to a Hitler like black and white figure is the sort of intellectual level so enjoyed by Donald Trump amongst others. 

crunchman

Drew_TNBD said:

Incorrect. Most level headed people are arguing to just leave them in place. Moving them to museums is a compromise move with the extremists who want to pull them down and completely destroy them. This mentalism wont go away. This will go as far as Mt. Rushmore and other monuments and statues. And it will come to the UK too. Mark my words.

It already has.  Look at the fuss over the Rhodes statue at Oriel College in Oxford.

ourmaninthenorth

Didn't the Oxford Union attempt to have the statue of Cecil Rhodes removed, unsuccessfully if memory serves. It's not coming here, it already is. 

joneve

Evilmags said:

joneve said:

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

It's basically like there being a statue of Adolf Hitler in Berlin - there isn't obviously, because he was a racist, bigoted nut job and that would be absurd. And I'm sure any normal person wouldn't begrudge it being removed if there was one....They've simply kept their history in museums instead. 

That makes the very lazy and not entirely true assumption that the Civil war was entirely fought overy slavery. It also ignores Lee''s role in post war reconciliation, education and preventing retribution upon former slaves. Lee was a general, not an idealoge or political leader and led a long and complex life. Simplifying him to a Hitler like black and white figure is the sort of intellectual level so enjoyed by Donald Trump amongst others. 

Drew_TNBD said:

joneve said:

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

Incorrect. Most level headed people are arguing to just leave them in place. Moving them to museums is a compromise move with the extremists who want to pull them down and completely destroy them. This mentalism wont go away. This will go as far as Mt. Rushmore and other monuments and statues. And it will come to the UK too. Mark my words.

Fair enough, If I'm honest, I couldn't give a shit whether they stay or go. I used to love America, and aspired to live there for years. That ship has long since sailed. They're in even more of a mess than we are. 

joneve

Evilmags said:

joneve said:

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

It's basically like there being a statue of Adolf Hitler in Berlin - there isn't obviously, because he was a racist, bigoted nut job and that would be absurd. And I'm sure any normal person wouldn't begrudge it being removed if there was one....They've simply kept their history in museums instead. 

That makes the very lazy and not entirely true assumption that the Civil war was entirely fought overy slavery. It also ignores Lee''s role in post war reconciliation, education and preventing retribution upon former slaves. Lee was a general, not an idealoge or political leader and led a long and complex life. Simplifying him to a Hitler like black and white figure is the sort of intellectual level so enjoyed by Donald Trump amongst others. 

I was using an extreme example because on your terrible argument that they are trying to re-write history, which is also a massive assumption. Bad shit has happened in history, we don't forget about it, but we should learn from it and if it's really not something to be proud of, perhaps the monument(s) should be moved (Not just specifically referring to the statue of Gen. Lee as I appreciate he may not have been a complete cunt like a lot of the pricks that seem to worship him or want him burned at the stake).

Drew_TNBD

crunchman said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Incorrect. Most level headed people are arguing to just leave them in place. Moving them to museums is a compromise move with the extremists who want to pull them down and completely destroy them. This mentalism wont go away. This will go as far as Mt. Rushmore and other monuments and statues. And it will come to the UK too. Mark my words.

It already has.  Look at the fuss over the Rhodes statue at Oriel College in Oxford.

ourmaninthenorth said:

Didn't the Oxford Union attempt to have the statue of Cecil Rhodes removed, unsuccessfully if memory serves. It's not coming here, it already is. 

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Well... yeah, there you go.

Emp_Fab

I don't get this lily-livered hand-wringing sitting on the fence centrist shit.  All this yap yap yap by people without the balls of their forebears to stand up and say that Nazism is evil and must be extinguished at any cost.  "Ooh, they have the right to argue their corner", "Oh, the "leftist extremists" were just as bad".. etc.  Fuck off... "Leftist extremists" my arse...   It was Nazis .... and not Nazis.  It was people who believe in the persecution of minorities vs people who believe in civil liberty.  

Getting bogged down in who threw the first punch etc is to deliberately avoid facing the far, far, FAR bigger issue that Nazis are holding rallies again...   Anyone with an ounce of sense or the slightest comprehension of modern history must surely know that they cannot be permitted to spread their hatred and bile again.  I would have liked to have accompanied his post with some very real photos of the very real things done in the name of Nazism, but some things are just too horrific.  Which is exactly what the idea of a Nazi rally should be to every right-thinking human.

Lewy

Evilmags said:

joneve said:

Evilmags said:

Their are a few interesting facts conveniently ignored by both sides.

1) the KKK was founded by Democrats, not Republicans. 

2) Democrats opposed the ending of segregation. 

3) The Dixie flag was part of democrat campaigns as recently as Clinton Gore. 

On any historical analysis racism has been legally perpetuated by the American left than by the right. Trump may be a moron of the highest order, but it is not likely a Nazi would let his daughter marry a practising Jew. Antifa have a long history of violence and arelated certainly more organised than the rabble of redneck idiots in Charlottesville. Elements on the far left and far right in the US have been loudly provoking each other, neither areally representative of the average American and both are twats of the highest order. 

Removing historical monuments is stupid. Things that happened don't go away and trying to rewrite history just leads to its mistakes never being learned. 

Most level headed people aren't arguing that history should be erased, they're saying, keep that shit in museums, not on show like you're proud of it. 

It's basically like there being a statue of Adolf Hitler in Berlin - there isn't obviously, because he was a racist, bigoted nut job and that would be absurd. And I'm sure any normal person wouldn't begrudge it being removed if there was one....They've simply kept their history in museums instead. 

That makes the very lazy and not entirely true assumption that the Civil war was entirely fought overy slavery. It also ignores Lee''s role in post war reconciliation, education and preventing retribution upon former slaves. Lee was a general, not an idealoge or political leader and led a long and complex life. Simplifying him to a Hitler like black and white figure is the sort of intellectual level so enjoyed by Donald Trump amongst others. 

That slave-protecting, post-war healer depiction of Lee is somewhat open to debate:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Also, seeing as you have invoked the L-word, it is exceptionally lazy to conflate the segregationist "dixiecrat" politics of people like George Wallace with the Democratic party or the left. You either need to read up or stop deliberately oversimplifying. 

CabbageCat

Emp_Fab said:

I don't get this lily-livered hand-wringing sitting on the fence centrist shit.  All this yap yap yap by people without the balls of their forebears to stand up and say that Nazism is evil and must be extinguished at any cost.  "Ooh, they have the right to argue their corner", "Oh, the "leftist extremists" were just as bad".. etc.  Fuck off... "Leftist extremists" my arse...   It was Nazis .... and not Nazis.  It was people who believe in the persecution of minorities vs people who believe in civil liberty.  

Getting bogged down in who threw the first punch etc is to deliberately avoid facing the far, far, FAR bigger issue that Nazis are holding rallies again...   Anyone with an ounce of sense or the slightest comprehension of modern history must surely know that they cannot be permitted to spread their hatred and bile again.  I would have liked to have accompanied his post with some very real photos of the very real things done in the name of Nazism, but some things are just too horrific.  Which is exactly what the idea of a Nazi rally should be to every right-thinking human.

You are one of life's "feelers". Those of us who are "thinkers" have a hard time with your sort because reasoned argument doesn't work on you - if it doesn't match what you feel you react against it without bothering to think about it; if it does match what you feel then you will roll around in it and pretend to yourself that you are thinking.

The extremists on both sides are probably "feelers" too.

Trying to get people to think is the only non-violent solution here but I don't think it can realistically be done.

Drew_TNBD

Emp_Fab said:

I don't get this lily-livered hand-wringing sitting on the fence centrist shit.  All this yap yap yap by people without the balls of their forebears to stand up and say that Nazism is evil and must be extinguished at any cost.  "Ooh, they have the right to argue their corner", "Oh, the "leftist extremists" were just as bad".. etc.  Fuck off... "Leftist extremists" my arse...   It was Nazis .... and not Nazis.  It was people who believe in the persecution of minorities vs people who believe in civil liberty.  

Getting bogged down in who threw the first punch etc is to deliberately avoid facing the far, far, FAR bigger issue that Nazis are holding rallies again...   Anyone with an ounce of sense or the slightest comprehension of modern history must surely know that they cannot be permitted to spread their hatred and bile again.  I would have liked to have accompanied his post with some very real photos of the very real things done in the name of Nazism, but some things are just too horrific.  Which is exactly what the idea of a Nazi rally should be to every right-thinking human.

You're arguing from a position of ignorance. You don't know ANYTHING about antifa, the black block, communism or socialism, or even the people that identify as the alt-right - for instance, many of them are *NOT* Nazi's. They're Western chauvinists and white supremacists. Completely different things. Nazi's were national SOCIALISTS. That's what the word means and that was their doctrine.

But you know... keep defending one half of the identity politics marriage... coz that will work out very well for society in the long run:


The FAR LEFT creates and invigorates the FAR RIGHT... this is basic - fucking BASIC - horseshoe political theory. Anyone who has actually READ A BOOK rather than just wrung their hands on the internet would know this.

Lewy

Drew_TNBD said:

 Nazi's were national SOCIALISTS. That's what the word means and that was their doctrine.

What credible historians can you cite that place the Nazis anywhere but to the far right of the political spectrum? Yes, the word is contained in the name Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei but I've never seen that treated as anything more than a name. What were their left wing policies and actions?

For clarification, I'm asking about what is generally accepted to be the Nazis we fought in WWII, as opposed to the formative factions. I know there were Nazis along the way who opposed capitalism but Hitler certainly didn't.

ourmaninthenorth

The relevant word is Nationalist, the socialist part is merely the sugar coating for the masses, for the bitterest of pills. 

brojangles

It's silly to say "the Democrats are racist too! Lincoln was a Republican dontcha know!' because the coalitions just reversed polarity, partly in response to LBJ's civil rights legislation. 19th century Republicans stood for northern business interests and a degree of social liberalism, like the Democrats do today. 

Silly too to say that taking down statues of Confederate leaders is political correctness gone mad. I agree that if we took down statues of everyone who was a baddie in some degree, we wouldn't have many statues left. But we can make distinctions. A statue of Lincoln or Jefferson isn't primarily there to make an ideological point about white supremacy and resentment, which is what the bulk of the Confederate statues were put up to do, long after Reconstruction had fizzled out and the south had reconstructed a system of racial terror in the shape of Jim Crow. 

Also I'm not convinced that people making the point that the US state still uses too much violence against black people are as scary or alarming as a bunch of nutters with flaming torches chanting 'White lives matter!' and 'Jews will not replace us!' 

I would also like to point out that the Vice reporter is very good, and that she looks a lot like a hipster version of Jaws's girlfriend from Moonraker. 

Drew_TNBD

Lewy said:

Drew_TNBD said:

 Nazi's were national SOCIALISTS. That's what the word means and that was their doctrine.

What credible historians can you cite that place the Nazis anywhere but to the far right of the political spectrum? Yes, the word is contained in the name Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei but I've never seen that treated as anything more than a name. What were their left wing policies and actions?

What the actual fuck?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Initially, Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although such aspects were later downplayed in order to gain the support of industrial entities, and in the 1930s the party's focus shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes.[8]

So they began as a workers party, had some core anti-capitalist socialist themes, and only later on downplayed them when it was to their advantage.


Then this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program

Lot of left-wing socialist themes there - dissolving debts, equality rights, anti-business statutes, child protection themes, and "the good of the state before the good of the individual" - which is another way of saying collectivism.

You might want to give this a read too: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/hitler-and-the-socialist-dream-1186455.html

The Nazi's had right-wing and left-wing policies, just as all governments tend to do. Their history does have left-wing ties, even if once Hitler rose to power those left-wing elements were reduced and downplayed.

Drew_TNBD

Lewy said:

Drew_TNBD said:

 Nazi's were national SOCIALISTS. That's what the word means and that was their doctrine.

What credible historians can you cite that place the Nazis anywhere but to the far right of the political spectrum? Yes, the word is contained in the name Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei but I've never seen that treated as anything more than a name. What were their left wing policies and actions?

For clarification, I'm asking about what is generally accepted to be the Nazis we fought in WWII, as opposed to the formative factions. I know there were Nazis along the way who opposed capitalism but Hitler certainly didn't.

I guess all my point was is that looking at this stuff in simplistic good versus evil terms like Empy would have us do, gets us nowhere. Whether the key word is nationalist or socialist ... that's just a distraction. The main point is that he's calling centrists like me lily livered because we condemn both sides. He thinks that condemning both sides is giving these neo-nazi white supremacist fucks a pass.

And it just fucking is not the case.

Lewy

Drew_TNBD said:

Lewy said:

Drew_TNBD said:

 Nazi's were national SOCIALISTS. That's what the word means and that was their doctrine.

What credible historians can you cite that place the Nazis anywhere but to the far right of the political spectrum? Yes, the word is contained in the name Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei but I've never seen that treated as anything more than a name. What were their left wing policies and actions?

What the actual fuck?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Yeah we can all look at Wikipedia, shitty-pants. It also says:

The majority of scholars identify Nazism in both theory and practice as a form of far-right politics.[13] Far-right themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate other people and purge society of supposed inferior elements