Helix in front of Amp - Clean Sound Problem, do I need an AX8? - SOLVED! :)

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  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    peteri said:

    If I compare that to guitar-g2-amp, there's definitely something missing. The G2 signal has more fullness, more pick on the strings to it, just sounds more like the guitar.


    Could it possibly be a feel thing, a latency thing? I know the Helix probably has very low latency figures but there must be some if it's fully digitised.

    Maybe comparing it to the analogue setup played from say (pulling totally spurious guess out of thin air*) 30 or 40 feet further away would be a truer comparison?

    *does sound travel faster or slower in thin air, hmmmm?
    :-?
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  • peteri said:

    If I compare that to guitar-g2-amp, there's definitely something missing. The G2 signal has more fullness, more pick on the strings to it, just sounds more like the guitar.


    Could it possibly be a feel thing, a latency thing? I know the Helix probably has very low latency figures but there must be some if it's fully digitised.

    Maybe comparing it to the analogue setup played from say (pulling totally spurious guess out of thin air*) 30 or 40 feet further away would be a truer comparison?

    *does sound travel faster or slower in thin air, hmmmm?
    :-?
    Helix latency is imperceptible. There was a discussion of this somewhere and IIRC it's in the region of 1.8ms, which is less than moving 2 feet further from your amp.
    It's not a competition.
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  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    peteri said:

    If I compare that to guitar-g2-amp, there's definitely something missing. The G2 signal has more fullness, more pick on the strings to it, just sounds more like the guitar.


    Could it possibly be a feel thing, a latency thing? I know the Helix probably has very low latency figures but there must be some if it's fully digitised.

    Maybe comparing it to the analogue setup played from say (pulling totally spurious guess out of thin air*) 30 or 40 feet further away would be a truer comparison?

    *does sound travel faster or slower in thin air, hmmmm?
    :-?
    Helix latency is imperceptible. There was a discussion of this somewhere and IIRC it's in the region of 1.8ms, which is less than moving 2 feet further from your amp.
    That's quite impressive - I don't think I've played a modeller since a v1 Pod.
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  • I think latency is basically a non issue on any of the current high end modelers
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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    Put the studio compressor in the chain
    move the fx into a parallel path
    there are loads of things you can do
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  • welshboyowelshboyo Frets: 1808
    Another thought....Input Pad - is it on or off?

    I messed around with this last night in 4CM and whilst it's only a volume perception, there is definitely something "more" about the sound with it off for me...
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  • peteripeteri Frets: 1283

    Input pad is off

    @cabicular - have the compressor already, makes a big difference.

    Can I ask a question? What's the idea on the parallel path? Not tried that

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  • peteripeteri Frets: 1283
    And to be clear - if I can get this working, chances are I'll wait 6 months and sell the G2! (And maybe get a full fat rather than a LT Helix)
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    I do wonder if it's the buffer in the G2 that you like (that's not a bad thing).

    How have you set the input impedance on the Helix? Try the highest setting - that might most closely emulate what you're getting from the G2's buffer.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • peteripeteri Frets: 1283

    Input Impedance is 1Mohm.

    But that's a good point, tonight I'm going to compare G2 to straight into amp - maybe it's adding 'fairy dust'

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  • Sporky makes a good point, my Cornish buffer was the main thing I missed when doing the big switch - it was the sole part of the chain that made the biggest difference, for me. 
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    I'd guess that the G2's buffer has a higher input impedance than 1M.

    How have you done the comparison? If you've not already, might be worth putting the Helix into a G2 loop, put some tape over the LED for that loop, have someone hit the button a random number of times (so you don't know how it's set) and see if you can tell whether you're going through the Helix or not.

    Just to be clear again it's not that I think you're imagining it, just trying to get as fair a comparison as possible so we can work out what's causing the difference and see if there's a workaround.

    I assume that not caring isn't a valid workaround for you? ;)
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • peteripeteri Frets: 1283
    All excellent suggestions. I think I'll stick my klon ktr in front of both the helix and g2 as an experiment - the buffer in that should then level the playing field. Could I live with it? Possibly, I prefer the drives in the Helix and it's just a lighter, smaller solution. Even if I do something like Flint and King of Tone plus the Helix on a pedal train that's a much smaller and cheaper solution Plus for the first time ever I'm enjoying headphones enough to play with them. Will update some more after experimenting. Thanks for the advice all
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  • @Sporky you've got me thinking now, the Cornish buffer has an input impedance of 1 M ohm, I didn't know you could set the input impedance on the Fractal, but you can, do you think it would yield similar results? Asking as I'm in work and desperate to get home to try it now! 
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    Well, broadly speaking, a higher input impedance for the first thing your guitar "sees" means more treble makes it through from the pickups. To some people that sounds like "sparkle", to some it sounds like a faster attack, to some it sounds "brittle" or harsh. It may also affect how subsequent processing sounds - more treble into an amp model may mean more fizz with high gain, fer instance.

    But it is something that can genuinely affect the sound, and if you've got a fair bit of processing before the amp it is genuinely different from turning up the treble on the amp.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    The G2 impedance is crazy high. I remember seeing a post from Daniel on Facebook saying it was 2m or something similar

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  • RMJRMJ Frets: 1274
    Mine sounded gash into an amp too. So I sold the amp and bought monitors for home and use FOH at band praccy.  
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  • Sporky said:
    Well, broadly speaking, a higher input impedance for the first thing your guitar "sees" means more treble makes it through from the pickups. To some people that sounds like "sparkle", to some it sounds like a faster attack, to some it sounds "brittle" or harsh. It may also affect how subsequent processing sounds - more treble into an amp model may mean more fizz with high gain, fer instance.

    But it is something that can genuinely affect the sound, and if you've got a fair bit of processing before the amp it is genuinely different from turning up the treble on the amp.
    That's great to know. I've got a lot to learn about this stuff. With the Fractal, I can set the input impedance per preset, so that'll be perfect for some of my clean tones, may go back to normal for high gain tones. In fact, this will be infinitely more usable than my old rig with the constant Cornish - which wasn't so nice with high gain!
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13929
    John_A said:
    Reverb in front of an amp sucks balls.

    Always. No exceptions. Ever.
    Tell that to Dick Dale :)

    And Neil Young


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  • ibisibis Frets: 8
    Try setting an eq unit at end of your fx chain with HPF @ 100Hz and LPF at 9KHz
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