Celestion Blue alternatives?

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57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
I fancy a C Blue in my Tweed Deluxe, but other options are Webber Blue Dogs (and pups for 10s) and Eminence Red Coat... what else is a clone of the Blue?
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  • LebarqueLebarque Frets: 3755
    Warehouse Black & Blue
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  • TheMarlinTheMarlin Frets: 7744
    Tayden Ace is good.  Scumback make excellent speakers. 
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  • MartinBMartinB Frets: 178
    Are Tayden still in business?  It doesn't seem like anywhere has stock at the moment. 
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  • TheMarlinTheMarlin Frets: 7744
    I hope they are. They make great speakers.  
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  • RiftAmpsRiftAmps Frets: 3113
    tFB Trader
    +1 WGS Black and Blue
    *I no longer offer replacement speaker baffles*
    Rift Amplification
    Handwired Guitar Amplifiers
    Brackley, Northamptonshire
    www.riftamps.co.uk

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    edited August 2017
    Nothing sounds quite like a Blue. Red Fang is good in its own right but the midrange is different, Tayden Ace 25 was very close, but still not quite as rich sounding and nowhere's had them in stock for years so I think they've quietly folded. Weber Blue Dog, again nice but totally different to the blue - softer, more middy, smoother and much quieter.

    The Gold is, depending on who you ask, either exactly the same or totally different. I got a Cream a couple of weeks back, it's closer to the blue than the gold is.

    Not tried the WGS stuff. Their ceramic models tend to be reported as smoother than the Celestion equivalents, which is either fantastic or muddy and useless depending on who you ask. And the Scumnico is supposedly very close to a vintage Celestion Alnico rather than the current blue, which sounds lovely on paper but they're so expensive to get here.

    But nothing quite touches the Blue, if the blue is the sound you're after.

    There's one in the classifieds for a good price just now. If I hadn't just got the Cream, I'd have jumped on it.
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  • Modulus_AmpsModulus_Amps Frets: 2569
    tFB Trader
    Cirrus said:

    The Gold is, depending on who you ask, either exactly the same or totally different. I got a Cream a couple of weeks back, it's closer to the blue than the gold is.


    That is what I found about the cream too, the gold is different.

    Tayden are still going, contact them direct as I believe the fell out with lean business. Also they are making speakers for Supertone at the moment which are meant to be quite good.

    https://store.supertonerecords.com/collections/frontpage

    Cheers

    Michael

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481


    Above is the Gold's published response. I don't put a lot of trust in these things, because two speakers with the same basic response curve can sound drastically different... but that spike at 10-15kHz is the issue, I think. Compare the above to the Blue;


    That's, like, more than 25dB (!!) more at 15k.

    "But Cirrus, guitars don't have much info up that high anyway!" You might exclaim.

    And you're right. But 25dB is a lot. So I think if your tone has practically nothing going on up there, you'll hear the gold and think it's nice and alnico-ey, like the blue. If your amp is generating harmonics that high, you'll hear them as being about three times louder than with the blue and think the gold is fizzy/bright.
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  • DodgeDodge Frets: 1430
    Cirrus said:
    Nothing sounds quite like a Blue...

    ...The Gold is, depending on who you ask, either exactly the same or totally different...
    This man speaks the truth (and wis'd accordingly).

    I don't like the Gold - for me the more 'Blue' sounding high power alnico speaker is the Emi Red Fang.  It's not the same, but it's VERY good indeed.  It does require a lot of breaking in though - more than any Celestion I've owned.

    (Disclaimer: I've not tried a Cream but I intend to at some point)
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71957
    Cirrus said:


    Above is the Gold's published response. I don't put a lot of trust in these things, because two speakers with the same basic response curve can sound drastically different... but that spike at 10-15kHz is the issue, I think. Compare the above to the Blue;


    That's, like, more than 25dB (!!) more at 15k.

    "But Cirrus, guitars don't have much info up that high anyway!" You might exclaim.

    And you're right. But 25dB is a lot. So I think if your tone has practically nothing going on up there, you'll hear the gold and think it's nice and alnico-ey, like the blue. If your amp is generating harmonics that high, you'll hear them as being about three times louder than with the blue and think the gold is fizzy/bright.
    Which is precisely what I found with the Gold. Lovely clean and with mild amp overdrive, not so good with heavy distortion and dirt pedals.

    I thought the Gold sounded like an 'alnico V30' more than like a Blue. I put one - along with one original V30 - in my Trem-o-verb for a bit, and there was surprisingly little difference between them.

    And perhaps not coincidentally, look at the response chart for the V30…

    http://celestion.com/images/products/1/graph.gif

    I tend not to pay too much attention to these either because to a large extent they all look like 'guitar speakers', which can sound very different from each other, but I think these more obviously identifiable similarities do mean something.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    edited August 2017
    Yeah, they're all broadly the same response curve, so it's just where they really do depart that's of interest. Now, this interested me - notice that every diagram pictured shows a dip around 1.5kHz? Any guesses as to why? 
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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    edited August 2017
    ICBM said:


    I thought the Gold sounded like an 'alnico V30' more than like a Blue. I put one - along with one original V30 - in my Trem-o-verb for a bit, and there was surprisingly little difference between them.


    ... been saying this also for ages. I actually like the V30 in my Cornford and Fender Supersonic and in an additional external cab that I use with some other amps too.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71957
    Cirrus said:
    Yeah, they're all broadly the same response curve, so it's just where they really do depart that's of interest. Now, this interested me - notice that every diagram pictured shows a dip around 1.5kHz? Any guesses as to why? 
    Not sure, but if it's a characteristic of most Celestions, it will be something in the common physical construction, like the resonant frequency of the cloth coil support or something.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413
    There was a Fane stall at the Guitar Show in Birmingham.  I don't know if they have anything worth a look.  They did tell me that they aren't just reproducing the old ones.  I think they are after a more Celestion type sound with some models.

    If you've got the money, an original 60's Blue has still got something special.  I love my Lazy J 20, but the former manager of Chandlers has an original Blue in his.  I heard that and went looking on Ebay - until I saw the prices!

    Whether there is anything genuinely different in the Construction of the 60's one, I don't know.  It might just be that mine needs another 30 years of playing.
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    ICBM said:
    Not sure, but if it's a characteristic of most Celestions, it will be something in the common physical construction, like the resonant frequency of the cloth coil support or something.
    Its is that it's a reflection bouncing back off the edge of the surround into the cone - 1.5khz is about 9 inches. Likewise, most speakers have resonances around 2.5-3k (ask anyone who's recorded metal guitar!), and for the same reason - the vibration travels out from the voice coil, hits the surround and bounces back in. You also get reflections coming off the basket.

    That's what I was told, anyway. As with all things, it could be complete bullshit.  =)
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    crunchman said:
    Whether there is anything genuinely different in the Construction of the 60's one, I don't know.  It might just be that mine needs another 30 years of playing.
    Besides 30 years of playing which can't be understated, It'll be the formulation of the paper cone, I bet. The '60s ones used a couple of different cones - the 1777 cone and one that ends 003. They were made by Pulsonic, and they lost the documentation for making the paper pulp in a fire in the early '70s apparently.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71957
    Cirrus said:

    Its is that it's a reflection bouncing back off the edge of the surround into the cone - 1.5khz is about 9 inches. Likewise, most speakers have resonances around 2.5-3k (ask anyone who's recorded metal guitar!), and for the same reason - the vibration travels out from the voice coil, hits the surround and bounces back in. You also get reflections coming off the basket.

    That's what I was told, anyway. As with all things, it could be complete bullshit.  =)
    That sounds plausible - and if so, it would mean that 10" speakers should have that notch slightly higher up.

    This is the G10 Vintage - which I think sounds very much like a 10" V30 - and sure enough it has the dip at about 1.8kHz.

    http://celestion.com/images/products/30/graph.gif

    All the other 10s do as well, with the odd exception of the 'Ten 30', although presumably that should have a peak at the 'shit' frequency...

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • DodgeDodge Frets: 1430
    Cirrus said:
    crunchman said:
    Whether there is anything genuinely different in the Construction of the 60's one, I don't know.  It might just be that mine needs another 30 years of playing.
    Besides 30 years of playing which can't be understated, It'll be the formulation of the paper cone, I bet. The '60s ones used a couple of different cones - the 1777 cone and one that ends 003. They were made by Pulsonic, and they lost the documentation for making the paper pulp in a fire in the early '70s apparently.
    I've owned many modern Celestion Blues and I've got 2 blues and 2 silvers from the 60's.  I'd say any difference in tone is probably more with regard to aging, modern glues etc. than anything fundamental with the cone construction.  The modern ones are VERY good indeed, especially one that's been well broken in.

    My 2003 AC30TBX speakers were almost indistinguishable from the vintage examples I have bar being marginally louder.  This gave the illusion of being slightly brighter when you're next to the amp - however recordings showed no real difference in tone.

    I certainly wouldn't be seeking out a vintage example for a modern amp - not worth the money IMHO unless you're replacing in a vintage amp.
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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    crunchman said:

    If you've got the money, an original 60's Blue has still got something special.  I love my Lazy J 20, but the former manager of Chandlers has an original Blue in his.  I heard that and went looking on Ebay - until I saw the prices!

    This is a dodgy strategy as being so under rated power-wise, many were blown in the heat of battle.
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