Kat-Hel-tana-ix

professorben

Right so this and many other forums are awash with good folk espousing the virtues of Helix and Katana. 

So is this a fad? 
Ive been active on this forum for about 18 months and I can't recall two singular products causing such a stir or radical re think of peoples set ups. 

A freind of of mine has recently 'gone helix' and I respect his playing and tone, I also remember the journey into other digital modelling gear and it mirrors my own experiences. 

Hear it, love it, omg it's gonna change my whole life/playing/appearance etc, buy it for a grand, use it for a couple years sell it for less than half, couple years after that it's worth less that 1/4 of its new price etc etc. 

So my wondering is, have we reached the tipping point, where Tone or sound quality is no longer the deciding factor? Is it more work flow, ease of use etc

do we think that in say 5 years, the Helix units now will still be used?
updates and expansions obviously keep units relevant, but how much is an AxeFx #1 now? Compared to new prices at the time?

my Preamp is 30 years old, my power amp 25, they are creating relevant authentic tones now as they did when new. 

At what point does the technology get to the stage where it's beyond conscious human perception to tell the difference? 

Or that the price point of new drops to the point where budget digital Amps can give 95% of the results of old tech Valve or ss amps? 

Are we at that tipping point now? 

Caveat: I've tried neither and Axefx or a helix, or a katana 

Strangefan

It will never change unfortunately the manufacturers will always tout tonal improvements however negligible as they will capitalise on the guitarists obsession with the facade of better /more authentic tone, it's the same with pickups, there is only so much you can do with magnets and copper wire but that still doesn't stop them from selling snake oil..... My opinion only  

guitarfishbay

Lot of guitarists are getting old and want something lightweight

Lot of younger guitarists are being brought up on music that doesn't use real amps anyway

Lot of people live in houses where they can't play an amp loud so something Digital that sounds good with headphones or on monitors is a good idea 

Ditto for home recording 

Plenty of people have wanted to go digital for years, but this current gen of modellers is the first time it's been competitive as a credible alternative. Plenty of people can't reliably tell a recording of an amp from a current high end modeller - which means same for through a PA etc. 

guitarfishbay

Helix does strike a price/availability/capability point that makes it attractive to many. My own personal opinion aside (have posted that elsewhere) there's no denying it is a very strong product and on balance a great choice for a lot of people.

The Katana seems to do the same thing for a different price point and set of needs.

Plenty of people recommend Telecasters all the time for guitars. That's been pretty unchanged for decades

professorben

guitarfishbay said:

Helix does strike a price/availability/capability point that makes it attractive to many. My own personal opinion aside (have posted that elsewhere) there's no denying it is a very strong product and on balance a great choice for a lot of people.

The Katana seems to do the same thing for a different price point and set of needs.

Plenty of people recommend Telecasters all the time for guitars. That's been pretty unchanged for decades

There's always one eh?

Sporky

If Line6, Fractal and so on are to stay in business they need to not only convert new customers but also keep existing ones upgrading - they need cashflow.

Will the Helix sound as good in five years as it does now? Well, on the one hand, obviously yes. On the other it is possible that modelling will move on further. I think the sounds are essentially there now, so it's more likely to be about more flexibility of routing and control if anything.

I do think the Helix platform has a rosy future - Line6 are providing updates and expansions fairly regularly...

guitarfishbay

Not that it can predict the future, but Line 6 has a product timeline on their site.

http://uk.line6.com/timeline/

fields5069

I think people, me included, like the somewhat analogue pretensions of the Katana. Would they sell as many if they said it was all-digital? The marketing is fantastic and they sound good. I think it'll sound as good in 5 years because analogue pre-amps are analogue pre-amps. An improvement in the DSP of the power section will be barely noticeable.

guitarfishbay

I dunno, never played a Katana, but IMO the power section is where all the Valve stuff really happens. The reactive way in which a valve power section interacts with the speakers is what gives a lot of the sound and feel, as far as I can tell.

So many people use solid state drive pedals into valve amps and it still sounds valvely, but running a valve preamp into a solid state poweramp can be pretty stiff sounding. That's where the power amp sims on modellers can make a difference. IMO anyway. Caveat is I'm basing this on ears and an extremely basic understanding of amps, one of the more knowledgeable guys would know better

fields5069

guitarfishbay said:

I dunno, never played a Katana, but IMO the power section is where all the Valve stuff really happens. The reactive way in which a valve power section interacts with the speakers is what gives a lot of the sound and feel, as far as I can tell.

So many people use solid state drive pedals into valve amps and it still sounds valvely, but running a valve preamp into a solid state poweramp can be pretty stiff sounding. That's where the power amp sims on modellers can make a difference. IMO anyway. Caveat is I'm basing this on ears and an extremely basic understanding of amps, one of the more knowledgeable guys would know better

True, but they are already doing a pretty good job of it with the DSP in both the Katana and Blues Cube. It could be improved for sure, but as a package I don't think it would sound all that different.

Teetonetal

I can only speak for my self, but Helix is the first product that allows me to really maximize my home environment. For me it's a revolutionary product. Look just what I do with it... countless others do totally different things..

It's a giant sound card, with on board fx, fx loops and extensive routing options. I can record guitar, vocals, HW synths etc, I can use it as a pre or post fx box, I can add my moogerfoogers to the loops and run VST snyths through them. I can reamp a dry signal (of any instrument of VST). I can use it as a  conventional amp modeller, I can use it in 4cm with my valve gear. I can use it's footswitches to trigger samples, midi loops, control a roland SPD:

Come on, this thing is fucking amazing. Best piece of music gear released this century in my opinion. sure, there are individual boxes that can beat it for modelling, or fx, or as a sound card, etc but as a do it all, all in one solution for the home musician? What out there is better?

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:

Come on, this thing is fucking amazing. Best piece of music gear released this century in my opinion. sure, there are individual boxes that can beat it for modelling, or fx, or as a sound card, etc but as a do it all, all in one solution for the home musician? What out there is better?

As an all in one solution, nothing IMO, and that's a big part of why it's selling so well.

Paul_C

I picked up a Katana 50w combo a couple of weeks ago, and I'm very impressed with it.

A few years ago I bought a Blackstar HT20 but couldn't get on with it because the clean channel was clean right up to full volume and the overdrive channel couldn't be cleaned up enough to get a just-on-the-edge-of-breaking-up sound.

I sold it and bought an AC15C1 which I liked a lot apart from having to buy valves for it

The AC15 went a few years ago but recently I felt like getting something to muck about with at home, and a quick google suggested the Katana would do what I wanted without valves so I fetched one home from PMT.

It does everything I want from a combo and the modeled pedals are a nice extra, a 12" speaker so it doesn't sound boxy, and all for only £189.00.

Bargain

randella

Bear in mind I don't do any home recording or reamping, just rehearsals and some gigs every year.  I need more than clean/dirty to cover the range of sounds in our set list, in a way that I like (which, when you do it for fun, is what it's about I guess).

For a couple of years I used a Pod X3 Live but was unhappy with the sound.  It just didn't have that 'last 10%'.  Switched back to an amp and pedals for another couple of years, but realised I was doing a tap dance at gigs.  Have now switched to the 80's, my old ADA preamp, dedicated rack FX, and a midi pedal board which I can lay out to give me four stages from clean to dirty with a boost for each one.  Lets me switch from clean to dirty boost and back to crunch in two stomps instead of four or five.  Doesn't sound like much but when you're on edge at a gig as I tend to be every little helps, so to speak.

Now the modelling gear is up to snuff - the Helix sounds absolutely amazing - I'd be interested to try it but don't fancy dropping the price of a USA Strat on a floorboard when I've got several other setups that'll do the job. 

What's good though is that you guys keen to try them, and fair play to you, are driving the market and soon the price of this stuff will inevitably drop.  When it does, bollocks to humping all that junk of mine upstairs to a pub to play in front of 30 people.  I'll be all over it.  I'm no amp snob, and my lower back is a disaster area as it is. 

Keep up the good work folks!

andyoz

It generally takes about 25 to 30 years for new tech to really bed in. We're at that stage now.

Alot of guitarist will end up keeping one or maybe two valve amps and then have a modeller rig. Those valve amps will be turned on less and less.

Drew_TNBD

andyoz said:

It generally takes about 25 to 30 years for new tech to really bed in. We're at that stage now.

Alot of guitarist will end up keeping one or maybe two valve amps and then have a modeller rig. Those valve amps will be turned on less and less.

Not my experience! Having owned three Kempers, two Axe FX II's, Helix, many variants on the Pod series, and tons of amp sims on my computer.... I still keep coming back to valves.

Mojo is real.

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

andyoz said:

It generally takes about 25 to 30 years for new tech to really bed in. We're at that stage now.

Alot of guitarist will end up keeping one or maybe two valve amps and then have a modeller rig. Those valve amps will be turned on less and less.

Not my experience! Having owned three Kempers, two Axe FX II's, Helix, many variants on the Pod series, and tons of amp sims on my computer.... I still keep coming back to valves.

Mojo is real.

Right but realistically people are now being brought up on the sounds of modelling which will tip the scales over time.  People often want the same equipment as their favourite bands.

I wonder how many young Periphery fans want amps vs want an Axe FX for example.

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Drew_TNBD said:

andyoz said:

It generally takes about 25 to 30 years for new tech to really bed in. We're at that stage now.

Alot of guitarist will end up keeping one or maybe two valve amps and then have a modeller rig. Those valve amps will be turned on less and less.

Not my experience! Having owned three Kempers, two Axe FX II's, Helix, many variants on the Pod series, and tons of amp sims on my computer.... I still keep coming back to valves.

Mojo is real.

Right but realistically people are now being brought up on the sounds of modelling which will tip the scales over time.  People often want the same equipment as their favourite bands.

I wonder how many young Periphery fans want amps vs want an Axe FX for example.

Well even Periphery still use valve amps a lot of the time. The real take home from this is that having more options is never a bad thing!

guitarfishbay

They haven't used them live in a long time IIRC.  The latest album (III: Select Difficulty) is all Axe FX 2, one of the Friedman models.  I think on Periphery II they sent the Axe FX through the poweramp of an EVH and mic'd it, not sure what they did with Juggernaut.

Misha definitely has a collection of amps and was involved in that recent Peavey amp design.  

Jonathanthomas83

I'm still not getting this whole valve mojo thing. I thought it was real about a year or so back, but now I couldn't be more the other way if I tried.

Referring to your clips back a few months ago, yes, the amp sounded favourable compared to the digital stuff, but not so much so that I thought "I need to go back to valves".

I listen back to old recordings of mine and think that it sounds beautiful, but I know I can get indistinguishably close with my current gear. I really don't miss valves at all. Sorry, I'm trying not to do this again...really sorry!

Drew_TNBD

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I'm still not getting this whole valve mojo thing. I thought it was real about a year or so back, but now I couldn't be more the other way if I tried.

Referring to your clips back a few months ago, yes, the amp sounded favourable compared to the digital stuff, but not so much so that I thought "I need to go back to valves".

I listen back to old recordings of mine and think that it sounds beautiful, but I know I can get indistinguishably close with my current gear. I really don't miss valves at all. Sorry, I'm trying not to do this again...really sorry!

I've tried so many times to move away from valve amps. It just doesn't stick. If you've seen us live you might understand why.