Installing Oil City pickups

Megii

imalrightjack said:

I loved my Nightfighters. Excellent pickups. 

I'm more of a neck pickup player, most of the time - and went more traditional PAF-ish with a Blitz Spirit for that one. But I have to say I'm really keen to try the Nightfighter when I get that one installed in the bridge position. Good to read a thumbs up for that one anyhow, cheers.

UnclePsychosis

So what sort of sound do the nightfighters do? 

OilCityPickups

UnclePsychosis said:

So what sort of sound do the nightfighters do? 

Alnico 4 PAF on steroids: can be clean and open, very string defined ... but an adequate supply of power on tap. 

thomasross20

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

OilCityPickups

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

Alegree

TheGuitarWeasel said:

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

I think a lot of it is probably to do with reintroducing the treble lost from the fine wire too.

OilCityPickups

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

I think a lot of it is probably to do with reintroducing the treble lost from the fine wire too.

I reproducing a PAF, even in SC size there is no necessity to go particularly fine in the wire as the originals are low wind anyway, also the height of the bobbins (nearly twice the height of a standard humbucker adjusts up the treble without recourse to more aggressive magnets. The combination of fine wire adjusted by harsh magnets is the reason many people hate the majority of SC sized humbucker sounds: honky, nasal, over compressed and generally lacking in 'refinement'.

Alegree

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

I think a lot of it is probably to do with reintroducing the treble lost from the fine wire too.

I reproducing a PAF, even in SC size there is no necessity to go particularly fine in the wire as the originals are low wind anyway, also the height of the bobbins (nearly twice the height of a standard humbucker adjusts up the treble without recourse to more aggressive magnets. The combination of fine wire adjusted by harsh magnets is the reason many people hate the majority of SC sized humbucker sounds: honky, nasal, over compressed and generally lacking in 'refinement'.

That's not right - you won't get 5000 winds of 42 on a single coil sized humbucker bobbin. I've only been able to get close to it with 43. Unless you have custom bobbins fabricated that are really high, you'll generally be going up a gauge for any given design in my experience.

OilCityPickups

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

I think a lot of it is probably to do with reintroducing the treble lost from the fine wire too.

I reproducing a PAF, even in SC size there is no necessity to go particularly fine in the wire as the originals are low wind anyway, also the height of the bobbins (nearly twice the height of a standard humbucker adjusts up the treble without recourse to more aggressive magnets. The combination of fine wire adjusted by harsh magnets is the reason many people hate the majority of SC sized humbucker sounds: honky, nasal, over compressed and generally lacking in 'refinement'.

That's not right - you won't get 5000 winds of 42 on a single coil sized humbucker bobbin. I've only been able to get close to it with 43. Unless you have custom bobbins fabricated that are really high, you'll generally be going up a gauge for any given design in my experience.

There are gauges of wire available between 42 and 43 that preserve the 42awg tone without going as far as 43 ... you may not have used them. I said: not going 'particularly fine' not: not going finer than 42awg :-)

Alegree

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

I think a lot of it is probably to do with reintroducing the treble lost from the fine wire too.

I reproducing a PAF, even in SC size there is no necessity to go particularly fine in the wire as the originals are low wind anyway, also the height of the bobbins (nearly twice the height of a standard humbucker adjusts up the treble without recourse to more aggressive magnets. The combination of fine wire adjusted by harsh magnets is the reason many people hate the majority of SC sized humbucker sounds: honky, nasal, over compressed and generally lacking in 'refinement'.

That's not right - you won't get 5000 winds of 42 on a single coil sized humbucker bobbin. I've only been able to get close to it with 43. Unless you have custom bobbins fabricated that are really high, you'll generally be going up a gauge for any given design in my experience.

There are gauges of wire available between 42 and 43 that preserve the 42awg tone without going as far as 43 ... you may not have used them. I said: not going 'particularly fine' not: not going finer than 42awg :-)

Isn't the output of a 42.5 awg 7-8kish pickup with a tiny alnico 2 magnet going to be really low output compared to a standard PAF?

I think the SCHB design is most desired by the heavy blues / rock crowd.

OilCityPickups

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Alegree said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

thomasross20 said:

Pm sent.
So I think I like the skins of SD better than DiMarzio going by online clips. I know @ICBM isn't a fan but I thought the neck lil59 sounds great, also the jbjr. Why do they use ceramic and not Alnico 2 or similar if going for paf sounds?

Historically DiMarzio has always been a fan of ceramic over alnico, even to the extent of using air gaps between magnets and poles to tame ceramics down to alnico output levels. 
With SC size humbuckers the 'traditional wisdom' is that if you use ceramics you make up for the smaller magnet mass forced by the size constraints. I don't accept that, and have made perfectly successful alnico 2 SC size humbuckers ... you just have to get the wind right.

I think a lot of it is probably to do with reintroducing the treble lost from the fine wire too.

I reproducing a PAF, even in SC size there is no necessity to go particularly fine in the wire as the originals are low wind anyway, also the height of the bobbins (nearly twice the height of a standard humbucker adjusts up the treble without recourse to more aggressive magnets. The combination of fine wire adjusted by harsh magnets is the reason many people hate the majority of SC sized humbucker sounds: honky, nasal, over compressed and generally lacking in 'refinement'.

That's not right - you won't get 5000 winds of 42 on a single coil sized humbucker bobbin. I've only been able to get close to it with 43. Unless you have custom bobbins fabricated that are really high, you'll generally be going up a gauge for any given design in my experience.

There are gauges of wire available between 42 and 43 that preserve the 42awg tone without going as far as 43 ... you may not have used them. I said: not going 'particularly fine' not: not going finer than 42awg :-)

Isn't the output of a 42.5 awg 7-8kish pickup with a tiny alnico 2 magnet going to be really low output compared to a standard PAF?

I think the SCHB design is most desired by the heavy blues / rock crowd.

As far as the volume drop produced by a smaller than standard magnet there is very little in it, and tone is more important than outright volume in my book. The post I was replying to specifically referred to a PAF style pickup, which is by nature low wind, and asked why did manufacturers use ceramics in these, 
Actually one of the most iconic SC sized humbuckers is the Joe Barden (see my rewind of one here) and not at all one for the average blues rockers :-) 

Megii

I may not be very typical, but personally I do like the idea of there being lower and medium output strat size humbuckers available, that aim to give good, sweet-sounding clean tones. I once tried an SD Lil' 59, and didn't think very much of it really - it was kind of in the ballpark in terms of frequency balance, but somehow there was just a cold quality to the sound. That's how I found it anyhow. I have Lace Sensors in one of my strats, and find the Lace Blue is a lot better for my taste than the Lil' 59. But lower wind/output strat size rails, with alnico magnets, are something I may well end up going for in the future.

UnclePsychosis

I too have just ordered some of Ash's creations. I've gone for something a wee bitty different but I'm sure they'll sound awesome. 

OilCityPickups

Megii said:

I may not be very typical, but personally I do like the idea of there being lower and medium output strat size humbuckers available, that aim to give good, sweet-sounding clean tones. I once tried an SD Lil' 59, and didn't think very much of it really - it was kind of in the ballpark in terms of frequency balance, but somehow there was just a cold quality to the sound. That's how I found it anyhow. I have Lace Sensors in one of my strats, and find the Lace Blue is a lot better for my taste than the Lil' 59. But lower wind/output strat size rails, with alnico magnets, are something I may well end up going for in the future.

Guess that takes us back to us pickup makers not assuming we know what you customers want ... we go full circle in the thread
  :-)

Bucket

I've had many pickups from Ash, and once I've sold off the guitars I plan to sell, all my remaining electrics will have them - Blackbird humbuckers in my Blackmachine, StoneTones in my Strat and Winterizer minihums in my Flying V.

They all sound fabulous - he really does a great job and is a gent to deal with.

OilCityPickups

Bucket said:

I've had many pickups from Ash, and once I've sold off the ones I plan to sell, all my remaining electrics will have them - Blackbird humbuckers in my Blackmachine, StoneTones in my Strat and Winterizer minihums in my Flying V.

They all sound fabulous - he really does a great job and is a gent to deal with.

Thanks dude ... you are a very easy customer to deal with and a great player ... and I bloody want your V!!!!

:-)

Bucket

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Bucket said:

I've had many pickups from Ash, and once I've sold off the ones I plan to sell, all my remaining electrics will have them - Blackbird humbuckers in my Blackmachine, StoneTones in my Strat and Winterizer minihums in my Flying V.

They all sound fabulous - he really does a great job and is a gent to deal with.

Thanks dude ... you are a very easy customer to deal with and a great player ... and I bloody want your V!!!!

:-)

I'm afraid it's probably going to have to be prised out of my cold, dead hands - it's your fault though, because those Winterizers are a massive part of why I love it so much now. It's always played great, but now it has the sound to match.

OilCityPickups

Ha, well I'll always have the few weeks it was in my workshop I suppose lol

Megii

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Megii said:

I may not be very typical, but personally I do like the idea of there being lower and medium output strat size humbuckers available, that aim to give good, sweet-sounding clean tones. I once tried an SD Lil' 59, and didn't think very much of it really - it was kind of in the ballpark in terms of frequency balance, but somehow there was just a cold quality to the sound. That's how I found it anyhow. I have Lace Sensors in one of my strats, and find the Lace Blue is a lot better for my taste than the Lil' 59. But lower wind/output strat size rails, with alnico magnets, are something I may well end up going for in the future.

Guess that takes us back to us pickup makers not assuming we know what you customers want ... we go full circle in the thread
  :-)

It would seem to be the case! As I say, I'm possibly not very typical in terms of what I like re pickups, and I don't know if your dual rail, alnico magnet strat pickups are particularly big sellers, but it's great to know that you do them all the same. There is something to be said for catering to the needs of minorities, at least I hope so.

OilCityPickups

Megii said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Megii said:

I may not be very typical, but personally I do like the idea of there being lower and medium output strat size humbuckers available, that aim to give good, sweet-sounding clean tones. I once tried an SD Lil' 59, and didn't think very much of it really - it was kind of in the ballpark in terms of frequency balance, but somehow there was just a cold quality to the sound. That's how I found it anyhow. I have Lace Sensors in one of my strats, and find the Lace Blue is a lot better for my taste than the Lil' 59. But lower wind/output strat size rails, with alnico magnets, are something I may well end up going for in the future.

Guess that takes us back to us pickup makers not assuming we know what you customers want ... we go full circle in the thread
  :-)

It would seem to be the case! As I say, I'm possibly not very typical in terms of what I like re pickups, and I don't know if your dual rail, alnico magnet strat pickups are particularly big sellers, but it's great to know that you do them all the same. There is something to be said for catering to the needs of minorities, at least I hope so.

SC rails pickups re never something I'd do in volume: they are horribly difficult to make properly and thus not very economically viable (unless you mass produce them like the big brand makers). I'm happy to keep them special order for customers who know what they want. 

:-)