Heavy guitars. Plus points.

ThePrettyDamned

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/telecaster/guitar_wood.pdf

Boom.  With that, everything we say is still just interpretation and personal experience, but this document conclusively proves that, with a mic (acoustic sound) AND with a pickup (electric sound), the tone is different.

impmann

[quote="meltedbuzzbox;171041"
The thing that annoys me are people moaning that a 9lb guitar isn't good for their back.If your back cant take a 9lb weight you need to fix it with some kind of strengthening exercises instead of buying a lighter guitar [/quote]

Well, as one of the moaners about this I suppose I'd better explain - I lost the discs between three lower vertebrae in an accident (they were kicked out when I tried to stop someone else's fight). I then damaged the disc that sits on top of the now-fused vertebrae in an industrial accident and have an equally damaged disc in my neck. At one point I was told I may not walk again. No amount of exercise is going to repair that damage. I do regular strengthening exercises just to keep me upright...
Therefore, its not quite that clear cut.
And yes, as a result, I have to be very careful of the weight of my guitars - as standing with a dead weight around my shoulders for two or three hours flares up the disc damage. And currently, medical science hasn't really got around to resolving that fully - and quite honestly, buying a light guitar is a small price to pay for being able to walk.
:-)

Brize

meltedbuzzbox said:

The thing that annoys me are people moaning that a 9lb guitar isn't good for their back.

If your back cant take a 9lb weight you need to fix it with some kind of strengthening exercises instead of buying a lighter guitar 

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous thing to say. Some people have back and/or shoulder problems and some people just have small frames that can't accommodate a heavy guitar. For me 9lbs is about the limit. I once owned a 9.5lb Les Paul and I was in pain and seriously unhappy after playing it for about 10 minutes.

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

@ICBM found a document recently that conclusively proved that the wood does make a difference to the sound that comes from magnetic pickups.  Hopefully he can dig it out and show you, but the people that did the experiment came to the wrong conclusion.  There were in many places a 3db difference in peaks, and in some others 6db - that's well over double the volume of a frequency, yet they concluded it made no difference! Unbelievable. 

However, it *is* a good point about Steinberger, but for the fact I think they have a very different sound to 'regular' guitars, not so much the sustain but the sound, and I think that's why they quite often come with EMG pickups.  The ones I've tried have all actually lacked sustain too, but the tone was noticeably thinner sounding unplugged (and, as the magnetic pickup picks up the string moving, that absolutely MUST affect what the pickup picks up).  

For what it's worth, I think sustain has much more to do with resonant frequencies (which are real - check your washing machine if you don't believe me) than it does body weight.  My LTD sustains better when tuned to flats than e standard or D standard (which is where it is).  I think that means the body and neck happen to better support the frequencies produced.  

So marketing vs fact - check the facts.  I'll see if I can find this document, the conclusion basically ignores the evidence but the evidence is there.  

ThePrettyDamned said:

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/telecaster/guitar_wood.pdf

Boom.  With that, everything we say is still just interpretation and personal experience, but this document conclusively proves that, with a mic (acoustic sound) AND with a pickup (electric sound), the tone is different.

It was actually @georgenadaintl who provided the link to that document in the first place .

As you say it does actually scientifically and conclusively prove that there is a tonal difference between body woods, although the investigators decided to ignore their own evidence.

The reason Steinbergers sustain so well despite being lighter is because of the hardness and rigidity of the material. Once you move away from wood you can't directly compare them. (Or even with very different types of wood.) If you made a guitar with a giant body made from a ten pound block of foam rubber, would it sustain well or sound good? Obviously not . If you made a guitar with a body and neck made from hollow tubular stainless steel which weighed a couple of pounds, would it sustain well? Yes - it's been done.

But if you're comparing two guitars with similar bodies made from similar woods and one is a lot heavier than the other due to the variation in wood density, then it begins to be worth making some observations about weight and tone. Sustain is far less related - it's down to the exact resonance of the particular body and neck. Some very heavy guitars sound dead and don't sustain well, some light guitars sound weak and don't sustain well. And vice versa… but the heavy and light ones still broadly sound like heavy and light.

I expect that could be shown by proper frequency analysis of a couple of widely differing examples as well.

wordy

The only advantage I've found to a heavier guitar is as I play mostly sitting down, once you have them in position, a heavier guitar seems more likely to stay there.

My tele is quite heavy and sits in my lap steady with the neck just where I want it... my lighter strat tends to slide around a bit at times.

matone

meltedbuzzbox said:

My strat is real heavy, easily 11 lbs, but fuck me it sounds fantastic, and thats what matters.

The thing that annoys me are people moaning that a 9lb guitar isn't good for their back.

If your back cant take a 9lb weight you need to fix it with some kind of strengthening exercises instead of buying a lighter guitar 

Some of us have backs knackered by years of hard graft which aint fixable !

bertie

meltedbuzzbox said:

The thing that annoys me are people moaning that a 9lb guitar isn't good for their back.

If your back cant take a 9lb weight you need to fix it with some kind of strengthening exercises instead of buying a lighter guitar 

I think we all felt the same as you once, I look forward to your comments when you're approaching 50.

imalone

georgenadaintl said:

As long as a guitar's body can hold the string tension without flexing they're all the same. Let's not mistake the marketing speak for fact.

Absolutely. Except that would be an infinitely stiff material. No wooden body and neck will hold the tension without flexing. In addition to what every else has already said, here's a simple experiment: pick up a guitar, pluck an open string, put your hand on the body while it's still ringing. It vibrates, that energy is coming directly from the string vibration, which means it's interacting.

georgenadaintl said:

Also worth considering is pickup type and placement. The closer it is to string = more volume but less sustain. EMGs are good in that regards as they have little magnetic pull and high output overall although they are not to everybody's taste. I used to have a mahogany-body ESP that weighed a LOT and it had far less sustain and output than my lightweight Steinberger. The difference came down to the bridge (Floyd vs fixed bridge + tuners all same end) and the pickups (SDs fairly close to strings vs EMGs not that close to strings).

Definitely the pickup type and placement has a big effect, and the bridge will have some. It's just that mechanics doesn't stop at the bridge.

Phil_aka_Pip

One advantage of a heavy axe is guaranteed work for chiropractors

guitarfishbay

I wonder how much of the 'trend' is due to the amount of middle aged and older members on web forums, especially the really big US ones which sometimes seem to set trends.  The whole 'heavy Baja' (=bad) thing seemed to be a result of web forum discussions.

Personally I find heavier guitars tend to have a more immediate and punchy attack compared to lighter guitars of the same style as a generalisation.  I usually prefer guitars on the heavier side.

With acoustics I seem to prefer lighter ones though!

Phil_aka_Pip

@DannyP I have an SG2000 which is only slightly lighter than my LP and it is the most sustainingest instrument I have. Yet plugging it into a Yamaha tuner, you tweak the machine head, stop when the string is up to pitch, and that's it. You can see the sustain, but there's no "dancing around" first. IIRC my LP displays similar behaviour, so I don't think a dancing needle is caused just by sustain. There must be something else involved (don;t ask me what though)

bertie

guitarfishbay said:

With acoustics I seem to prefer lighter ones though!

that's cos they are better  -  pick up a good luthier made guitar and compare it to an 'off the shelf'  lower end one.....  worlds apart

but that's another thread for another section  

DannyP

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@DannyP I have an SG2000 which is only slightly lighter than my LP and it is the most sustainingest instrument I have. Yet plugging it into a Yamaha tuner, you tweak the machine head, stop when the string is up to pitch, and that's it. You can see the sustain, but there's no "dancing around" first. IIRC my LP displays similar behaviour, so I don't think a dancing needle is caused just by sustain. There must be something else involved (don;t ask me what though)

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there, Phil.

What I was saying was that once the needle settled down to pitch, it stayed there for quite some time due to the sustain. I didn't say 'a dancing needle is caused just by sustain'.

martinw

Timely thread. I might have a 9lb Strat to sell soon.

The weight doesn't bother me too much, but the neck fingerboard is maple which I'm not keen on.

My word, does it ring and sustain though.

meltedbuzzbox

I understand with accidents, 

Brize said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

The thing that annoys me are people moaning that a 9lb guitar isn't good for their back.

If your back cant take a 9lb weight you need to fix it with some kind of strengthening exercises instead of buying a lighter guitar 

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous thing to say. Some people have back and/or shoulder problems and some people just have small frames that can't accommodate a heavy guitar. For me 9lbs is about the limit. I once owned a 9.5lb Les Paul and I was in pain and seriously unhappy after playing it for about 10 minutes.

I thought I might touch a nerve.

Dont give me crap about the size of your frame, go down the gym and see some of the weight those with "little frames" are lifting. I know slender girls squatting 60kg + 

I used to play with a lad in his late 30s that played a tele that weighed 11lbs, he was about 5"4 and weighed sod all. He got on fine, most likely because he used to get down the gym on occasion.

Legitimate medical issues I have nothing but sympathy for @Impmann thats real shit what happened to you bud and my hat goes off to you, many would just give up. 

back to the discussion of weight 

The ONS said the average man in England was 5ft 9in (175.3cm) tall and weighed 13.16 stone (83.6kg).

so 83..6kg is 184.3 lbs. 9.5lbs is 5% ish of the average mans weight. If you cant carry 5% of you body weight that is supported on a strap for an hour or two, you need to address your physical condition.

Skipped

If you are built like a brick outside toilet and an extra pound on a Les Paul is hardly noticeable to you, I think you are very lucky. Because  -  you have a bigger choice of guitars. I think a Les Paul that weighs 9.8 lbs could be just as good as one that weighs 8.8 lbs, but (now) everybody seems to want the lighter guitar.

57Deluxe

British School of cairopractors swear by them too...

guitarfishbay

DannyP said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@DannyP I have an SG2000 which is only slightly lighter than my LP and it is the most sustainingest instrument I have. Yet plugging it into a Yamaha tuner, you tweak the machine head, stop when the string is up to pitch, and that's it. You can see the sustain, but there's no "dancing around" first. IIRC my LP displays similar behaviour, so I don't think a dancing needle is caused just by sustain. There must be something else involved (don;t ask me what though)

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there, Phil.

What I was saying was that once the needle settled down to pitch, it stayed there for quite some time due to the sustain. I didn't say 'a dancing needle is caused just by sustain'.

What string gauge did you use on the strat / LP?

I'd be willing to guess that the 'dancing needle' was caused by lower string tension on the LP (a result of both string gauge and setup).  It is quite easy to push open strings sharp with lower string tension.  The initial attack will be sharp but then the sustain will flatten.  This can cause the 'dancing needle' phenomenon while the string settles itself.

Phil_aka_Pip

DannyP said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@DannyP I have an SG2000 which is only slightly lighter than my LP and it is the most sustainingest instrument I have. Yet plugging it into a Yamaha tuner, you tweak the machine head, stop when the string is up to pitch, and that's it. You can see the sustain, but there's no "dancing around" first. IIRC my LP displays similar behaviour, so I don't think a dancing needle is caused just by sustain. There must be something else involved (don;t ask me what though)

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there, Phil.

What I was saying was that once the needle settled down to pitch, it stayed there for quite some time due to the sustain. I didn't say 'a dancing needle is caused just by sustain'.

OK.

As a matter of interest, (well, maybe not!) I take it that a dancing needle means the tuner can't make up its mind about the fundamental frequency of the string. I could also accept that if you're messing wildly with the machine head the tuner will also be confused. What other causes could there be? knackered strings giving different fundamentals over differently stretched/fatigued parts of the speaking length?

timmysoft

I used to love heavy guitars and thought that the extra weight added girth to the tone at volume. I've recently realised that its not really necessary though, with a decent rig you should be able to get all the girth and low end you need from even the lightest of guitars.

I'm recovering from a slipped disc and trapped nerve in my shoulder so i've had to move away from big heavy guitars, the doctor actually said that the extra pressure of having a guitar slung round my neck practically every night for the last 15 years has definitely contributed to the injury i sustained. Before people say anything i'm 6'1" and 14 stone, i'm not little or weak by any stretch of the imagination, but the world wasnt really made for us to be upright and the guitar hanging off your back will undoubtedly cause you problems. 

So now i'm a big fan of light guitars, not Parker Fly light, but i think Ibanez RG's are acceptable! The Godin i'm currently playing seems to be the perfect weight and incredibly well balanced on a strap, i was standing for 4 hours at rehearsal last week and had no pain at all. 

I think i've got to that old age where my health is more important than the impact my tone may or may not have on someone, if i'm happy with it and the band are happy with it then i'm definitely cool with my guitars being lighter!