Beauty and the Beast

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Been learning this in fingerstyle and trying to decipher what's happening with the chords. Here's what I've got so far. Any comments or able to help with the bit with question marks?
(As an aside, I'm so tired of just learning songs without understanding what's going on beneath in terms of chords and scales so I'm trying to analyse what I'm playing now - but I couldn't "think" this fast in real terms. Would love to see more deconstructions like this...).

D -> A7 -> F#m                                -- KEY OF Dmaj

D -> Am7 -> D7 -> G                      -- KEY OF G. First D is in Dmaj, moves to Am7 instead of A7 then II-V-I to G.

G -> D -> Em -> A7 -> D                   -- KEY OF D. Starts in G, though. II-V-I to D.. all those chords
                                                              appear in both D major and G major scales. Common Em - smart!

F#m -> G -> Bm                               -- KEY OF Dmaj (really F#m in this bit because it "sounds" that way) 

Bm -> C -> D -> E                          -- KEY OF  E at the end but not sure how it gets there ... ????

E -> B7                                         -- KEY OF Emaj. 

E -> G#m -> A                              -- KEY OF Emaj (I III IV)

E -> Bm -> E7 -> A                       -- Emaj and II-V-I to Amaj (Bm is common - smart)

A -> E7 -> F#m -> B7 -> E          -- Amaj then II-V-I to Emaj (F#m common - smart)

C#m -> E -> E7 -> A                   -- Still in Emaj then E7->A shifts to Amaj

A -> E -> F#m -> B7 -> E            -- A maj then II-V-I to Emaj (F#m common)

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Comments

  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    All that is way over my head! I'm buying the piano music to the songs pretty soon, musicals are good stuff to play and sing along to (badly in my case)
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2176
    edited September 2017
    I'm sure @Viz is the man for this. Just one observation so far. You state the following in one of your examples.

    F#m -> G -> Bm                               -- KEY OF Dmaj (really F#m in this bit because it "sounds" that way)

    If you're going to call that F#m then I would think of that as F# Phygian mode as a scale that would fit. It all depends what the key centre is. If it resolved to Bm then I might think of it as Bm Aeolian, which are the same notes but just a different resolving note. I'd let my ears be the judge.
    It's not a competition.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited September 2017
    Can you post the link? The beauty and the beast song I can find is in E not D

    edit - ah, the cartoon version sorry
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2176
    edited September 2017
    Ah, I just realised you're referring to the actual song. I thought you were referring to the chord sequences as isolated examples. I must read things more carefully next time

    It's not a competition.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited September 2017
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-IV-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    edited September 2017
    Guys I'll read the replies later (though read that bit about F#m being phyrgian which I forgot to add - I just meant it was more minor in tonality without specifying the mode but that's right!). 

    Here is the tab I'm using with chords shown:
    https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/c/celine_dion/beauty_and_the_beast_tab.htm

    I'm really into this analysis now..

    E.g. intro of Sweet Child it's all really D mixolydian because there's C, G and D major. 

    What about Van Halen's Panama - I think (from memory) the chords are Emaj, Bmaj, Dmaj, Amaj - is he going from Bmaj to Amaj in terms of "key" here? 

    On top of all this then you have the solos to go... I'm so tired of playing and not understanding (well... not understand to the nth degree..) what's going on underneath. All the theory we need is right there in the songs we like to listen to. Time to properly pull them apart!
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Guys I'll read the replies later (though read that bit about F#m being phyrgian which I forgot to add - I just meant it was more minor in tonality without specifying the mode but that's right!). 

    Here is the tab I'm using with chords shown:
    https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/c/celine_dion/beauty_and_the_beast_tab.htm

    I'm really into this analysis now..
    E.g. intro of Sweet Child it's all really D mixolydian because there's C, G and D major. 

    What about Van Halen's Panama - I think (from memory) the chords are Emaj, Bmaj, Dmaj, Amaj - is he going from Bmaj to Amaj in terms of "key" here? 
    Panama intro is E! A.D; A.DA.AG_ E!

    The key throughout is E. They hang on the B dominant for a bar or two before the choruses, the solo is in b minor, and the bridge is in e minor. 


    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    edited September 2017
    What is E ! (what is the exclamation mark)? 
    OK - I'll have to check it - only just up lol...


    --> Are these not the intro chords?
    E    Esu4   B       E      E  B   D     Dsu4  A
    
    Seems it's in E mixolydian (as such) but I'm confused about the B.. it's the D# in the Bmaj chord, how does that "fit"?
    He slides from C# to D# in the bit leading up to the chorus, too - don't get that..
    And then goes into Bmaj again with that D#. How does that fit?
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    edited September 2017
    Oh sorry... clearly it is in Emaj.... 
    But then how does the Dmaj fit in? Argh! lol

    -> I'll return to beauty and the beast soon..
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-VI-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
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  • Never mind his playing..! 
    Great to have knowledge like that on here..
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Oh sorry... clearly it is in Emaj.... 
    But then how does the Dmaj fit in? Argh! lol

    -> I'll return to beauty and the beast soon..
    The D in Panama? That's just a sort of staccato grace note before the E root kicks in. It helps to accentuate the E mixolydian (rather than E major) aspect of the song. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643

    axisus said:
    viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-VI-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
    Ooooh no, honestly it's not advanced, theoretically speaking. It's really just a couple of basic principles, I guess I'm taking them to their limit within the song though. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Sorry, bear with me....
    It's either in E Ionian where Dmaj is "wrong" ...
    Or E mixo where Bmaj is "wrong"...

    Or... I think van halen just plays cool shapes and it "is what it is" and we're trying to apply some theory.. and what happens is it morphs between E Ionian (verses) and E mixo (chorus)... What do you think?

    I think it's mainly E mixo in the verses and chorus due to the chords A, D, E and slides to C#, and the C#m in the pre-chorus... 


    Solo I think is B dorian (fits with Amaj/E mixo) with the b5 blue note.. but at the end of the solo he seems to switch to a B aeolian shape with implied Em and throws in an F major.. leading me to believe this is E phyrgian at this point.

    Comments..?

    Sorry, I know I'm mixing two songs in this thread..
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  • aord43aord43 Frets: 287
    viz said:

    axisus said:
    viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-VI-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
    Ooooh no, honestly it's not advanced, theoretically speaking. It's really just a couple of basic principles, I guess I'm taking them to their limit within the song though. 
    "Advanced" is relative.  For some of us that *is* advanced :) 
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    edited September 2017
    I should add before VH goes back into the chorus he plays that little harmonic bit, including a D# on the B string, indicating E Ionian. So it really does seem a mix of Ionian and mixolydian unless I'm missing something... 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited September 2017
    Sorry, bear with me....
    It's either in E Ionian where Dmaj is "wrong" ...
    Or E mixo where Bmaj is "wrong"...

    Or... I think van halen just plays cool shapes and it "is what it is" and we're trying to apply some theory.. and what happens is it morphs between E Ionian (verses) and E mixo (chorus)... What do you think?

    I think it's mainly E mixo in the verses and chorus due to the chords A, D, E and slides to C#, and the C#m in the pre-chorus... 


    Solo I think is B dorian (fits with Amaj/E mixo) with the b5 blue note.. but at the end of the solo he seems to switch to a B aeolian shape with implied Em and throws in an F major.. leading me to believe this is E phyrgian at this point.

    Comments..?

    Sorry, I know I'm mixing two songs in this thread..
    Ah, ok, yes. And indeed I've never been very disciplined in naming whether something's purely major or mixolydian, or whether it's natural minor or dorian (or phrygian), unless it's completey fundamental to the piece, because the 3 major modes are all just flavours of major (they have a major 3rd and a major 6th; lydian sounds spicy, ionian sounds unseasoned and mixo sounds salty, but they're all major modes). Also with minor modes, they have a minor 3rd and a minor 7th; dorian sounds sweetened because it lacks a minor 6th; aeolian is unseasoned and phyrgian has a hint of cinammon with that naughty flattened 2nd. 

    So in the case of Panama, you're right the chords are not purely diatonic, because the intro and verse are mixolydian (not ionian - because they have a D chord so the D# is absent), but then they play a B major chord to herald the chorus.

    However thay doesn't suddenly mean they're no longer playing a song in mixolydian. That B is just a standard Dominant chord. You wouldn't want a minor V chord as it couldn't resolve properly to the tonic because it lacks the tonic's leading tone (the D#), so in mixolydian, you often have a proper, major V chord. It's just a tweaked note. Just like with Aeolian pieces, you can break the 'rule' and have a proper, major V chord. 

    And yep the solo is b minor (by which I mean whatever flavour of minor he chooses through his choice of notes - sometimes the 6th is raised, sometimes not, and there's possibly a flattened 2nd there too, I can't remember)

    fun fun fun!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Thanks for your reply - will get back to you later. On both songs...
    Do you think Eddie planned this or just played what sounded cool?

    I'm going to start a whole lot more of these threads...
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Played what sounded cool! There's really nothing to work out, it's just a song with E, A, D, and then a V chord ;)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • :lol: :) 
    You just know I'm going to come back to this later.. :lol: 

    I agree.. played what sounded good...!!
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