Beauty and the Beast

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Been learning this in fingerstyle and trying to decipher what's happening with the chords. Here's what I've got so far. Any comments or able to help with the bit with question marks?
(As an aside, I'm so tired of just learning songs without understanding what's going on beneath in terms of chords and scales so I'm trying to analyse what I'm playing now - but I couldn't "think" this fast in real terms. Would love to see more deconstructions like this...).

D -> A7 -> F#m                                -- KEY OF Dmaj

D -> Am7 -> D7 -> G                      -- KEY OF G. First D is in Dmaj, moves to Am7 instead of A7 then II-V-I to G.

G -> D -> Em -> A7 -> D                   -- KEY OF D. Starts in G, though. II-V-I to D.. all those chords
                                                              appear in both D major and G major scales. Common Em - smart!

F#m -> G -> Bm                               -- KEY OF Dmaj (really F#m in this bit because it "sounds" that way) 

Bm -> C -> D -> E                          -- KEY OF  E at the end but not sure how it gets there ... ????

E -> B7                                         -- KEY OF Emaj. 

E -> G#m -> A                              -- KEY OF Emaj (I III IV)

E -> Bm -> E7 -> A                       -- Emaj and II-V-I to Amaj (Bm is common - smart)

A -> E7 -> F#m -> B7 -> E          -- Amaj then II-V-I to Emaj (F#m common - smart)

C#m -> E -> E7 -> A                   -- Still in Emaj then E7->A shifts to Amaj

A -> E -> F#m -> B7 -> E            -- A maj then II-V-I to Emaj (F#m common)

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Comments

  • axisusaxisus Frets: 8659
    All that is way over my head! I'm buying the piano music to the songs pretty soon, musicals are good stuff to play and sing along to (badly in my case)
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 590
    edited September 25
    I'm sure @Viz is the man for this. Just one observation so far. You state the following in one of your examples.

    F#m -> G -> Bm                               -- KEY OF Dmaj (really F#m in this bit because it "sounds" that way)

    If you're going to call that F#m then I would think of that as F# Phygian mode as a scale that would fit. It all depends what the key centre is. If it resolved to Bm then I might think of it as Bm Aeolian, which are the same notes but just a different resolving note. I'd let my ears be the judge.
    It's not a competition
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    edited September 25
    Can you post the link? The beauty and the beast song I can find is in E not D

    edit - ah, the cartoon version sorry
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 590
    edited September 25
    Ah, I just realised you're referring to the actual song. I thought you were referring to the chord sequences as isolated examples. I must read things more carefully next time

    It's not a competition
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    edited September 26
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-IV-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited September 26
    Guys I'll read the replies later (though read that bit about F#m being phyrgian which I forgot to add - I just meant it was more minor in tonality without specifying the mode but that's right!). 

    Here is the tab I'm using with chords shown:
    https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/c/celine_dion/beauty_and_the_beast_tab.htm

    I'm really into this analysis now..

    E.g. intro of Sweet Child it's all really D mixolydian because there's C, G and D major. 

    What about Van Halen's Panama - I think (from memory) the chords are Emaj, Bmaj, Dmaj, Amaj - is he going from Bmaj to Amaj in terms of "key" here? 

    On top of all this then you have the solos to go... I'm so tired of playing and not understanding (well... not understand to the nth degree..) what's going on underneath. All the theory we need is right there in the songs we like to listen to. Time to properly pull them apart!
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    Guys I'll read the replies later (though read that bit about F#m being phyrgian which I forgot to add - I just meant it was more minor in tonality without specifying the mode but that's right!). 

    Here is the tab I'm using with chords shown:
    https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/c/celine_dion/beauty_and_the_beast_tab.htm

    I'm really into this analysis now..
    E.g. intro of Sweet Child it's all really D mixolydian because there's C, G and D major. 

    What about Van Halen's Panama - I think (from memory) the chords are Emaj, Bmaj, Dmaj, Amaj - is he going from Bmaj to Amaj in terms of "key" here? 
    Panama intro is E! A.D; A.DA.AG_ E!

    The key throughout is E. They hang on the B dominant for a bar or two before the choruses, the solo is in b minor, and the bridge is in e minor. 


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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited September 26
    What is E ! (what is the exclamation mark)? 
    OK - I'll have to check it - only just up lol...


    --> Are these not the intro chords?
    E    Esu4   B       E      E  B   D     Dsu4  A
    
    Seems it's in E mixolydian (as such) but I'm confused about the B.. it's the D# in the Bmaj chord, how does that "fit"?
    He slides from C# to D# in the bit leading up to the chorus, too - don't get that..
    And then goes into Bmaj again with that D#. How does that fit?
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited September 26
    Oh sorry... clearly it is in Emaj.... 
    But then how does the Dmaj fit in? Argh! lol

    -> I'll return to beauty and the beast soon..
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 8659
    viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-VI-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
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  • Never mind his playing..! 
    Great to have knowledge like that on here..
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    Oh sorry... clearly it is in Emaj.... 
    But then how does the Dmaj fit in? Argh! lol

    -> I'll return to beauty and the beast soon..
    The D in Panama? That's just a sort of staccato grace note before the E root kicks in. It helps to accentuate the E mixolydian (rather than E major) aspect of the song. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357

    axisus said:
    viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-VI-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
    Ooooh no, honestly it's not advanced, theoretically speaking. It's really just a couple of basic principles, I guess I'm taking them to their limit within the song though. 
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  • Sorry, bear with me....
    It's either in E Ionian where Dmaj is "wrong" ...
    Or E mixo where Bmaj is "wrong"...

    Or... I think van halen just plays cool shapes and it "is what it is" and we're trying to apply some theory.. and what happens is it morphs between E Ionian (verses) and E mixo (chorus)... What do you think?

    I think it's mainly E mixo in the verses and chorus due to the chords A, D, E and slides to C#, and the C#m in the pre-chorus... 


    Solo I think is B dorian (fits with Amaj/E mixo) with the b5 blue note.. but at the end of the solo he seems to switch to a B aeolian shape with implied Em and throws in an F major.. leading me to believe this is E phyrgian at this point.

    Comments..?

    Sorry, I know I'm mixing two songs in this thread..
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  • aord43aord43 Frets: 260
    viz said:

    axisus said:
    viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-VI-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 
    My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
    Ooooh no, honestly it's not advanced, theoretically speaking. It's really just a couple of basic principles, I guess I'm taking them to their limit within the song though. 
    "Advanced" is relative.  For some of us that *is* advanced :) 
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited September 26
    I should add before VH goes back into the chorus he plays that little harmonic bit, including a D# on the B string, indicating E Ionian. So it really does seem a mix of Ionian and mixolydian unless I'm missing something... 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    edited September 26
    Sorry, bear with me....
    It's either in E Ionian where Dmaj is "wrong" ...
    Or E mixo where Bmaj is "wrong"...

    Or... I think van halen just plays cool shapes and it "is what it is" and we're trying to apply some theory.. and what happens is it morphs between E Ionian (verses) and E mixo (chorus)... What do you think?

    I think it's mainly E mixo in the verses and chorus due to the chords A, D, E and slides to C#, and the C#m in the pre-chorus... 


    Solo I think is B dorian (fits with Amaj/E mixo) with the b5 blue note.. but at the end of the solo he seems to switch to a B aeolian shape with implied Em and throws in an F major.. leading me to believe this is E phyrgian at this point.

    Comments..?

    Sorry, I know I'm mixing two songs in this thread..
    Ah, ok, yes. And indeed I've never been very disciplined in naming whether something's purely major or mixolydian, or whether it's natural minor or dorian (or phrygian), unless it's completey fundamental to the piece, because the 3 major modes are all just flavours of major (they have a major 3rd and a major 6th; lydian sounds spicy, ionian sounds unseasoned and mixo sounds salty, but they're all major modes). Also with minor modes, they have a minor 3rd and a minor 7th; dorian sounds sweetened because it lacks a minor 6th; aeolian is unseasoned and phyrgian has a hint of cinammon with that naughty flattened 2nd. 

    So in the case of Panama, you're right the chords are not purely diatonic, because the intro and verse are mixolydian (not ionian - because they have a D chord so the D# is absent), but then they play a B major chord to herald the chorus.

    However thay doesn't suddenly mean they're no longer playing a song in mixolydian. That B is just a standard Dominant chord. You wouldn't want a minor V chord as it couldn't resolve properly to the tonic because it lacks the tonic's leading tone (the D#), so in mixolydian, you often have a proper, major V chord. It's just a tweaked note. Just like with Aeolian pieces, you can break the 'rule' and have a proper, major V chord. 

    And yep the solo is b minor (by which I mean whatever flavour of minor he chooses through his choice of notes - sometimes the 6th is raised, sometimes not, and there's possibly a flattened 2nd there too, I can't remember)

    fun fun fun!
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  • Thanks for your reply - will get back to you later. On both songs...
    Do you think Eddie planned this or just played what sounded cool?

    I'm going to start a whole lot more of these threads...
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    Played what sounded cool! There's really nothing to work out, it's just a song with E, A, D, and then a V chord ;)
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  • :lol: :) 
    You just know I'm going to come back to this later.. :lol: 

    I agree.. played what sounded good...!!
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  • viz said:
    Intro) D, Dsus4  (x4)
    V1) D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4; D, f#m, G, A7 (I-iii-IV-V)
    V2) D, Dsus4, D, am-D7-G (ii-V-I) em-A7-D (ii-V-I)

    Bridge) f#m, G, f#m, G, f#m, bm, C, (D), E! (modulation to E major)

    V3) E, Esus4, E, Esus4, E, g#m, A, B7 (as V1 but up a tone)
    V4) E, Esus4, E, bm-E7-A; f#m-B7-E.
    Ending) c#m, A, f#m, B7, E (vi-IV-ii-V-I)

    The modulation is interesting because you expect it to do an Elton John - going from the C to the A7, ready for D again, à la Circle of Life, but it goes (via a passing note D) to E major, which is a nice way of rising a tone, much more joyful and less lazy than the "trucker's gear shift" of jamming the song up a semitone. 

    The sus4s: Obviously you can play the IV chord instead (so a G in verses 1 and 2, or an A in verses 3 and 4), but it's more effective to play a sus4 so you can keep the pedal in the bass - it makes it smoother, not so clunky as going I-IV-I-IV.

    The other nice thing, which you've identified, is that in verse 2 (and 4), they do that clever trick of utilising the minor v chord en route to modulating fleetingly to the IV chord - the G. Normally the A would be major (well A dom7 actually). But by playing an a minor, it really softens the harmony and it allows you, almost teases you, into playing a mini ii-V-I, setting yourself up perfectly to land on the IV as a new temporary tonic for a second, before continuing the progression with a genuine ii-V-I in the stated key. 

    The 'normal' guitarist's way of doing this, of moving to the IV chord, which you hear in blues all the time, is just to just add a 7 to the D, to get D7 and force the resolution to G. But by going via the minor v chord, it's a much more elegant and luxurious harmony. You hear it in jazz blues all the time - where it would be am9-D(alt)-G9

    So, apart from the minor v chords creating a mini ii-V-I, and the Elton John C chord, and the modulation to E major, all the other chords are diatonic and fit the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii(dim) harmonisation of the major scale, which is why it sounds so natural. It doesn't modulate to f#m phrygian, that's just the iii minor chord from the key of D. Modulation implies that music establishes itself in a new key; the bridge section doesn't do that. 

    A nice little song - it's fun analysing even a simple song like that and seeing what it's made of. 


    Right, finally got time to check this out!!
    First off, it's written better than the slapdash way I wrote it out so I'll stick to verse, chorus etc in future like you've done. 

    So Elton John would just "hammer in" a 7th chord to signal a key change? 
    Sticking with that modulation bit... F#m - G - F#m - Bm (all in F# phyrgian to here) then C - D - E....
    The C, D, E really don't "belong" but just "sound cool"?
    [I notice the same thing in Panama where the lyrics go "she's blinding..." the chords are D E F G# A and I don't think they "belong" - they're just a "disconnected but nice-sounding" progression? 

     Why would you want to play a the G (IV) in the verse in place of Dsus4? 
    Dsus4 = D G A
    G = G B D - the 3rd of G doesn't appear in Dsus4 so I don't know why you'd suggest playing the IV? 

    Well written regarding substituting V7 with Vm to lead to a II-V-I in the IV key! So that's common? I need to learn more common progressions. Or at least keep analysing song after song to see what is most often done. I agree it sounds way nicer than just hammering in a I7 to modulate to IV. 


    ---->> So I never thought about it this way.... all these little II-V-I's don't really modulate the KEY to a new "I" key.... they are just a fancy way of getting to the existing chords in the present key. In terms of soloing, you couldn't play Dmaj all over verses 1 & 2 as that would clash, so you'd have to be smart about it (again I can see how chordal/arp playing is more appropriate for jazz-type progressions). Crikey.. 
    And yeah, it's not really modulated to F# phyrgian. I guess I'm just fitting the mode applicable to that chord, so F#m in key of D Ionian means the F# is phyrgian... but that's not the key, as such. No modulation (until later on).

    TBH I'm 100% glad I started this thread as writing down and getting input from others has been very helpful - I tend to get tunnel vision!





    Panama: 

    I get what you're saying, a V7 in natural minor can can go to Im - and you'd play harmonic minor over that (what else? I guess melodic minor depending on the chords - anything else?). But I don't see why you say the B is a B dominant chord... if we're in amaj/Emixo... B isn't the V...? And B7 would indicate a lead to Emaj but that's not what the chorus is in? I might be confused now..!

    I wonder if VH "meant" to switch between B dorian and aeolian in the solo! Fun, indeed..
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    edited September 29
    You ask some great questions and I'll test my quoting skills to the limit in an attempt to answer some of them, but I hope others chip in because I am definitely NOT an authority on this! I finished my grades in 1983 and have only recently become fascinated in this stuff as an amateur, so please remember this is all home-made thoughts! 


    Right, finally got time to check this out!!
    First off, it's written better than the slapdash way I wrote it out so I'll stick to verse, chorus etc in future like you've done. 
    Ta! Yep, these convos get really tricky and convoluted, so simplifying / standardising what you're trying to say definitely helps






    So Elton John would just "hammer in" a 7th chord to signal a key change? 
    Sticking with that modulation bit... F#m - G - F#m - Bm (all in F# phyrgian to here) then C - D - E....
    The C, D, E really don't "belong" but just "sound cool"?
    [I notice the same thing in Panama where the lyrics go "she's blinding..." the chords are D E F G# A and I don't think they "belong" - they're just a "disconnected but nice-sounding" progression? 



    Well, the Elton John thing is not signalling a key change; it's playing a C chord (which is not diatonic - as the song is in D major it 'should' be a c#dim, but instead you introduce a bVII chord, ie the C) which then typically would progress to the dominant, the A7, which then resolves to the D, which is the tonic. In other words, there is no modulation, just a non-diatonic "flat VII" chord. But in this song, you suddenly realise the C has been used as a bVI, the D has become a bVII and the E becomes the new tonic. 

    In Panama, that middle 8 is as follows: The key is E, right, and we're talking about the e minor section (ease the seat back etc). Then it's the stabs:

    The bass note moves chromatically up from tonic to dominant, ready for the resolution to the tonic E for the chorus. But the chords don't move up chromatically. They go: 

    E (the tonic)
    F (up a semitone; ok so that one IS chromatic)
    D first inversion; ie a D chord with an F# on the bottom
    G (that has G on the bottom, so it's semitone up from the F#, but it's really a V-I resolution from the previous D(2nd inv). So the bass line is smooth because it's ascending, and the harmonies are smooth because you have a resolution. Then the pattern is repeated: )
    E 1st inversion (with G# on the bottom)
    A (so another V-I resolution)
    F# 1st inversion (so with A# on the bottom)
    B_____ (another V-I inversion for 'ain't no stopping nooooooww')

    It's a really common progression. Eg it's used at the beginning of Disco Man by The Damned. 






     Why would you want to play a the G (IV) in the verse in place of Dsus4? 
    Dsus4 = D G A
    G = G B D - the 3rd of G doesn't appear in Dsus4 so I don't know why you'd suggest playing the IV? 




    Because you have 2 of the same notes, and 2 out of 3 isn't bad. A "sus4" chord just is a slippery IV chord. It resolves back down to the standard major triad by allowing the 4 to slip back down to the 3. So the 4 acts as a IV. You just have to be able to hear it. After all, a D sus4 (which is D G A, or G A D in another inversion), is pretty similar to a G, which is G B D, as you say. It's basically a G sus2!







    But I don't see why you say the B is a B dominant chord... if we're in amaj/Emixo... B isn't the V...? And B7 would indicate a lead to Emaj but that's not what the chorus is in? I might be confused now..!


    I think you might be wedding "dominant" too tightly to "mixolydian mode". 

    The Dominant chord (or "V chord") is the chord in 5th position, regardless of whether the key is major, minor, dorian, lydian or anything else. (apart from pieces in locrian, which don't have a dominant). 

    The word Dominant means that, apart from the tonic (the "I" chord), it's the most important chord in the scale, and gives the most pleasing resolution to the I chord. The V-I progression is called the perfect cadence. 

    Furthemore, a dominant chord is really properly effective when it has a major 3rd and a minor 7th, so basically a mixolydian scale; or a phrygian dominant; or a "hindu scale" (5th mode of melodic minor); or an "altered scale" or "super locrian" (7th mode of melodic minor). That's because the V's major 3rd resolves up to the tonic, and the V's minor 7th resolves down to the tonic's 3rd. Like a pincer movement. 

    So regardless of the tonic (whether it's major, minor, phrygian, mixolydian, whatever), it will almost always have a proper V chord; in the case of Panama, that's the B. And it resolves to the E major (remember, Mixolydian IS a major mode - it just has a flat 7, that's all). "V -> I" trumps "mixolydian -> ionian", if you see what I mean.

    In fact, in describing harmony, you should primarily talk about the chords - ie I, ii, iii etc - not modal scales.



    How's that?
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited September 28
    Just to let you know I read it and agree, I'm on my phone and don't have your quoting power so apologies for short reply.. totally appreciate the detailed answer! 

    Again I'm not sure if VH will have meant all of that in Panama, but who knows! 

    Ok I get you regarding the dominant chord, I definitely am getting stuck in modal thinking. It's quite a bi-modal song lol 

    I never did do my grades but I did read the AB guides to theory, the jazz theory book and others.. but it's one thing reading the stuff in a book then deconstructing a song like this, at least for me. I must learn not to be so rigid! 

    Thank you!
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  • vizviz Frets: 4357
    Just to let you know I read it and agree, I'm on my phone and don't have your quoting power so apologies for short reply.. totally appreciate the detailed answer! 

    Again I'm not sure if VH will have meant all of that in Panama, but who knows! 

    Ok I get you regarding the dominant chord, I definitely am getting stuck in modal thinking. It's quite a bi-modal song lol 

    I never did do my grades but I did read the AB guides to theory, the jazz theory book and others.. but it's one thing reading the stuff in a book then deconstructing a song like this, at least for me. I must learn not to be so rigid! 

    Thank you!
    I guarantee you're right - VH definitely didn't think "then we'll have a D first inversion"!

    But what we're doing is decomposing it, not composing it. They will have said, "then we'll go up in stabs, hover, and bam! Chorus!" and because Eddie has a flawless and deep sense of harmony, he just played those beautiful chords, rather than doing what a punk guitarist would have done, which is barre chords rising chromatically. It's second nature for natural musicians. Sure we can pick it apart, study it, immerse ourselves in it and try and learn from it, which is what developing as a musician is about, and that's what you're doing, and that's the right approach. :)
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited September 28


    Have you seen this (especially from 6min or so)? 


    What is most impressive is how he noodles around with exotic chords and their fingerings and makes it sound so amazing.. 
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  • My head explodes at the thought that people have your level of knowledge. Blows my mind, I just can't comprehend being there.
    @viz See ? I told you you were a knowledgeable guy ;)
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    I've ordered the "total electric guitar" dvd by Eric Johnson. "Fine art" as opposed to "art of" is also meant to be good but I'll see how it goes with the first one.
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 3444
    edited October 12
    I'm only 20 mins into this Eric Johnson DVD that got delivered and I'm like "wow" ... Seriously amazing. The guy is even more of a master than I realised..
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