The importance of pre-delay for reverb

Branshen

I have dabbled in recording but my recordings have always paled in comparison to proper studio stuff. 

Today, I listened to some of my simple recordings (vocals and acoustic guitar) and noticed that the reverb was muddying up the track. After comparing it to some excellent examples on YouTube, I think one of the shortcomings of my tracks is the mixing of reverb. 

I read in an article the importance of pre-delay https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixing-mastering/mixing-with-reverb/

"There's an old mixing trick to increase intelligibility in an instrument or vocals by introducing it with a louder volume before dropping it down to the proper volume for the rest of the song.  It helps the listener's brain latch on to it.  I don't suggest doing that, but there's a similar trick regarding reverb that involves a feature called pre-delay.
Pre-Delay is a time based setting in milliseconds.  So let's say you chose 50ms as your setting.  What this does is tells your plugin to not start producing reverb for the first 50ms you'd expect it to.  It waits that long before it fires.  If you set this length just past the longest attack of the guitar pluck or vocalists words, it keeps the signal completely dry long enough for your listener's brain and ears to hear clearly what's coming."

In addition, neunaber who makes the infamous wet reverb states that one of the key components to their reverb is the pre-delay! https://neunaber.net/pages/faqs

"Why do I hear a short delay before the reverb?
In reverb parlance, this is called pre-delay. This is normal and an integral part of the Wet Reverb 1.x algorithm. Pre-delay separates the reverb tail from the dry signal, resulting in greater transparency. Reverbs without sufficient pre-delay tend to "wash over" or "cover" the dry signal.
If you are accustomed to a reverb without pre-delay (such as a spring reverb), this may sound unusual at first. However, an overwhelming majority of users come to appreciate the pre-delay after a short adjustment period.
If you prefer less pre-delay, then please try one of our newer reverb algorithms available via the Expanse Series or the Immerse Reverberator."

Here's an example of my recordings. I think it really needs a bit of pre-delay to improve the clarity of the vocals in particular. Any further tips would be appreciated!

Cirrus

Something that surprised me when I started hanging out on a few production forums visited by professional, successful mixers, is how little a lot of them actually use reverb effects.

A lot of sense of space can be better created by working in a good sounding room and capturing the early reflections/ ambiance of the space being worked in, and I've never found a reverb that can replace capturing the room in the first place.

Come mix time, quite often reverb is added only to certain elements - just the lead vocal, just the snare rather than the whole kit, maybe a plate on a guitar solo, etc. Lots of mixers seem to go for delay before reverb. A short delay, bandpassed and smeared with a bit of overdrive, can do the same job and take up a lot less valuable sonic space. Sometimes they'll even add reverb just to the delay! That trick in particular is especially effective on vocals.

Stuckfast

I'd say there is too much of the wrong reverb on the vocal in your clip. It sounds like it was recorded in a bedroom (and maybe it was, in which case there's not much you can do about it).

Yes pre-delay is important, but so too is the actual choice of reverb patch. As this is a fairly uptempo song with fast delivery you don't want a long reverb. I'd try a shortish plate or chamber on the vocal with a pre-delay of 40ms or so to start with.

Sporky

Pre- delay happens in real acoustic spaces, then the early reflections, then the main reverberant field.

Our hearing system understands this and estimates the size of the space we're in from it, so if you don't have it in a mix it sounds unnatural.

Branshen

@Stuckfast Thanks for the feedback. I'll see if I can locate the stems for that project and give it another whirl.

PolarityMan

Sidechain the reverb bus to the input signal to simulate pre-delay (and other fun ways to unnecesarily complicate your mix).

Cirrus

Sporky said:

Pre- delay happens in real acoustic spaces, then the early reflections, then the main reverberant field.

Our hearing system understands this and estimates the size of the space we're in from it, so if you don't have it in a mix it sounds unnatural.

In principle I agree, with a couple of provisos;

- Unnatural isn't necessarily a problem when it comes to anything that's not a classical recording.

- If you follow this train of thought to its logical conclusion, you end up going mad with variable pre-delay to determine how near or far each part of the mix is. eg, things close to you have more pre delay than things further away. I've tried this, it's just a faff.

- I don't recall ever hearing a reverb effect that does the same job as an actual recorded acoustic ambiance. Drum room mics are the best example for this. If you don't have them, you'll never fake them with an effect.

Lebarque

Thanks all for the lesson on pre-delay. I've recently got a Talisman plate reverb pedal and have had the pre-delay on zero so far. Last night I experimented with it and totally see what you mean about preventing the signal getting washed out. Very useful. To my ear, this was very useful when using higher levels of reverb, but less noticeable when just adding a bit of ambience. Or can pre-delay be useful for lower levels of reverb too?

Branshen

@Lebarque this is a great video for use predelay in a guitar pedal context.

Sporky

Cirrus said:

Sporky said:

Pre- delay happens in real acoustic spaces, then the early reflections, then the main reverberant field.

Our hearing system understands this and estimates the size of the space we're in from it, so if you don't have it in a mix it sounds unnatural.

In principle I agree, with a couple of provisos;

- Unnatural isn't necessarily a problem when it comes to anything that's not a classical recording.

Absolutely!

One of the main reasons to understand the underlying acoustics is so that you can work out when to ignore realistic.

blobb

I always found this useful, from the SoS archive:

PAUL WHITE goes into economy mode and tries to coax an extra degree of realism out of a budget studio reverb unit.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140915052226/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/aug96/improvedreverb.html