Band members playing the wrong chords..

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  • viz said:
    ICBM said:
    I've always thought it was in G major.

    Ed King says it is too :).
    Phew, I was starting to think that it was just me that thought that.
    Eh I thought you were a D-er, no?
    I think of Sweet Home Alabama as based around a key centre of G major (Ionian) but it could equally be viewed as  D Mixolydian. Same difference because they both provide the same palette of notes.

    The first solo seems more D centric to me, whereas the second solo seems more G centric.

    I'm sure the 2nd solo when I played it many years ago was E pentatonic but that could be E major pentatonic which would make sense if it was in G I guess. If you know what I mean?
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 634
    edited October 2017
    viz said:
    ICBM said:
    I've always thought it was in G major.

    Ed King says it is too .
    Phew, I was starting to think that it was just me that thought that.
    Eh I thought you were a D-er, no?
    I think of Sweet Home Alabama as based around a key centre of G major (Ionian) but it could equally be viewed as  D Mixolydian. Same difference because they both provide the same palette of notes.

    The first solo seems more D centric to me, whereas the second solo seems more G centric.

    I'm sure the 2nd solo when I played it many years ago was E pentatonic but that could be E major pentatonic which would make sense if it was in G I guess. If you know what I mean?
    Did you mean to say E minor pentatonic, which happens to have the same notes as G major pentatonic? Although the notes would work, I wouldn't view it as E minor pentatonic. But if it works for you.
    It's not a competition
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  • viz said:
    ICBM said:
    I've always thought it was in G major.

    Ed King says it is too :).
    Phew, I was starting to think that it was just me that thought that.
    Eh I thought you were a D-er, no?
    I think of Sweet Home Alabama as based around a key centre of G major (Ionian) but it could equally be viewed as  D Mixolydian. Same difference because they both provide the same palette of notes.

    The first solo seems more D centric to me, whereas the second solo seems more G centric.

    I'm sure the 2nd solo when I played it many years ago was E pentatonic but that could be E major pentatonic which would make sense if it was in G I guess. If you know what I mean?
    Did you mean to say E minor pentatonic, which happens to have the same notes as G major pentatonic? Although the notes would work, I wouldn't view it in that way. But if it works for you.
    Yeah. I guess I do mean that. Theory isn't my strong point but I do have an exceptionally good ear and it's seemed to have got me by ;)
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3316
    Danny1969 said:
    Danny1969 said:
    It's amazing how many people don't know what key they are playing in ..... a lot of people i've played with other the years assumed it was the first chord of the song
     


    But what key is "Sweet Home Alabama” in? 
    Ah, I have a concept I call the Home key and the home key of that song is G to me. However I do tend to widdle away in D pent the first 2 bars before switching to G maj when I solo.

    I could be wrong though, that song does tend to polarise people 
    Sorry, a bit late to the party. It's in G. Imagine you're playing it live, you get to the end and do a cadence that goes D.... C.... G...... Where does it want to go from there? Nowhere. If it was in D, the cadence wouldn't sound complete (or 'perfect') unless you went back to finish on D. But if you try that, you feel like you're leaving home ground (G) and going back to the 5th, leaving it unresolved. Try it. Plus, humming it in my mind, the vocal melody keeps resolving to B which would be maj3rd in G, and relatively stable. If it was in D, that'd be a much less satisfying thing.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    edited October 2017
    Cirrus said:
    Danny1969 said:
    Danny1969 said:
    It's amazing how many people don't know what key they are playing in ..... a lot of people i've played with other the years assumed it was the first chord of the song
     


    But what key is "Sweet Home Alabama” in? 
    Ah, I have a concept I call the Home key and the home key of that song is G to me. However I do tend to widdle away in D pent the first 2 bars before switching to G maj when I solo.

    I could be wrong though, that song does tend to polarise people 
    Sorry, a bit late to the party. It's in G. Imagine you're playing it live, you get to the end and do a cadence that goes D.... C.... G...... Where does it want to go from there? Nowhere. If it was in D, the cadence wouldn't sound complete (or 'perfect') unless you went back to finish on D. But if you try that, you feel like you're leaving home ground (G) and going back to the 5th, leaving it unresolved. Try it. Plus, humming it in my mind, the vocal melody keeps resolving to B which would be maj3rd in G, and relatively stable. If it was in D, that'd be a much less satisfying thing.
    The thing is, a lot of people find the home is D. Like in Back in Black they find a home in E. In SHA it's all to do with whether you can hear a turnaround in the twiddle on the G chord (like in Back in Black), or can't (like in Maggie May). The reasons SHA is more ambiguous are many but include the slight shift in emphasis as the song progresses, certain rythmic cues deployed inconsistently, the fact that the D chord is mixolydian, the fact that live performances have a different emphasis from the studio version, etc.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 3230

    I think in some cases the key gives us an idea about what chords and scales are gonna be used in the song but it's not an absolute rule. 
    With SHA it always rest on the G for 2 bars, every other chord including the D is used for one bar only, a passing tone if you will ..... that's how I hear it and if you counted out the bars on the G major they would outnumber the D by some margin 

    There is something odd with it though because you can't just solo using Gmaj over it, I have to try and bend to the chords when I solo over it
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    edited October 2017
    Danny1969 said:

    I think in some cases the key gives us an idea about what chords and scales are gonna be used in the song but it's not an absolute rule. 
    With SHA it always rest on the G for 2 bars, every other chord including the D is used for one bar only, a passing tone if you will ..... that's how I hear it and if you counted out the bars on the G major they would outnumber the D by some margin 

    There is something odd with it though because you can't just solo using Gmaj over it, I have to try and bend to the chords when I solo over it
    Lol yep it's fun. I have studied this in immense detail, from many perspectives -  structural, rhythmical, phrasal (is that a word?), melodic, you name it. There are just sooo many aspects that you can draw on to decipher the key, and as can be shown from contrasting Back in Black with Maggie May, you can't tell just from the chords - I bVII IV vs. V IV I. 

    The starting chord doesn't help. The duration on each chord doesn't help. What helps is HOW you interpret it, even how you WISH to interpret it. It's quite possible to play it in either key, by using any number of rhythmic and melodic devices. 

    I could devote a whole thread to it. Oh I have.

    But here's one interesting thing that you may not have thought of. Check out what little melody you mind's ear plays along to the chords, and I'll guarantee you'll fall into one of three camps:

    Either at some point you'll find your mind has put in a little semitone-descending duplet of C---B--- over that D-C-G---, in which case you'll be landing on G as your tonic. Because you're resolving from the unstable 7th of the D to the stable major 3rd of the G. You can almost HEAR backing vocalists singing those notes, toggling back and forth between the V and the I -"oooooooh-yeahhhh", and again "oooooh-yeahhh". You'll be a staunch G-er and won't understand how others can possibly want to go back to what you think of as the V and stop there on the ooooooh!

    OR your mind will be inserting the same little descending duplet, except it'll be an augmented 4th higher - ie F#---F---, in which case you'll be wanting to resolve to the D, because the F# is the stable major 3rd of the D and the F is the unstable 7th of the G. You'll also be imagining backing singers going oooh-yeah, but for you the yeah is a turnaround ready for the final oooooh on D. You'll be a firm D-er who can't bear to leave it unresolved, hanging, on that G, it NEEDS to return home to the D!

    OR like me you'll have both pairs simultaneously, like playing xxxx78 followed by xxxx67, repeating endlessly over the 2 bars, ie playing the 3rd and 7th over D (and C), followed by the 3rd and 7th over G, and you'll be able to flip from V IV I to I bVII IV, and have to look for other cues to determine the key. Like downbeats vs upbeats, turnarounds vs settled notes, etc. 

    THIS is why nobody can agree. In both cases the resolution is strengthened by a 7th to a 3rd, but which is the right one? Muahaha. 
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  • viz said:
    Danny1969 said:

    I think in some cases the key gives us an idea about what chords and scales are gonna be used in the song but it's not an absolute rule. 
    With SHA it always rest on the G for 2 bars, every other chord including the D is used for one bar only, a passing tone if you will ..... that's how I hear it and if you counted out the bars on the G major they would outnumber the D by some margin 

    There is something odd with it though because you can't just solo using Gmaj over it, I have to try and bend to the chords when I solo over it
    Lol yep it's fun. I have studied this in immense detail, from many perspectives -  structural, rhythmical, phrasal (is that a word?), melodic, you name it. There are just sooo many aspects that you can draw on to decipher the key, and as can be shown from contrasting Back in Black with Maggie May, you can't tell just from the chords - I bVII IV vs. V IV I. 

    The starting chord doesn't help. The duration on each chord doesn't help. What helps is HOW you interpret it, even how you WISH to interpret it. It's quite possible to play it in either key, by using any number of rhythmic and melodic devices. 

    I could devote a whole thread to it. Oh I have.

    But here's one interesting thing that you may not have thought of. Check out what little melody you mind's ear plays along to the chords, and I'll guarantee you'll fall into one of three camps:

    Either at some point you'll find your mind has put in a little semitone-descending duplet of C---B--- over that D-C-G---, in which case you'll be landing on G as your tonic. Because you're resolving from the unstable 7th of the D to the stable major 3rd of the G. You can almost HEAR backing vocalists singing those notes, toggling back and forth between the V and the I -"oooooooh-yeahhhh", and again "oooooh-yeahhh". You'll be a staunch G-er and won't understand how others can possibly want to go back to what you think of as the V and stop there on the ooooooh!

    OR your mind will be inserting the same little descending duplet, except it'll be an augmented 4th higher - ie F#---F---, in which case you'll be wanting to resolve to the D, because the F# is the stable major 3rd of the D and the F is the unstable 7th of the G. You'll also be imagining backing singers going oooh-yeah, but for you the yeah is a turnaround ready for the final oooooh on D. You'll be a firm D-er who can't bear to leave it unresolved, hanging, on that G, it NEEDS to return home to the D!

    OR like me you'll have both pairs simultaneously, like playing xxxx78 followed by xxxx67, repeating endlessly over the 2 bars, ie playing the 3rd and 7th over D (and C), followed by the 3rd and 7th over G, and you'll be able to flip from V IV I to I bVII IV, and have to look for other cues to determine the key. Like downbeats vs upbeats, turnarounds vs settled notes, etc. 

    THIS is why nobody can agree. In both cases the resolution is strengthened by a 7th to a 3rd, but which is the right one? Muahaha. 
    So..... what key is it actually in LOL

    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    edited October 2017
    hotpickups said:
    viz said:
    Danny1969 said:

    I think in some cases the key gives us an idea about what chords and scales are gonna be used in the song but it's not an absolute rule. 
    With SHA it always rest on the G for 2 bars, every other chord including the D is used for one bar only, a passing tone if you will ..... that's how I hear it and if you counted out the bars on the G major they would outnumber the D by some margin 

    There is something odd with it though because you can't just solo using Gmaj over it, I have to try and bend to the chords when I solo over it
    Lol yep it's fun. I have studied this in immense detail, from many perspectives -  structural, rhythmical, phrasal (is that a word?), melodic, you name it. There are just sooo many aspects that you can draw on to decipher the key, and as can be shown from contrasting Back in Black with Maggie May, you can't tell just from the chords - I bVII IV vs. V IV I. 

    The starting chord doesn't help. The duration on each chord doesn't help. What helps is HOW you interpret it, even how you WISH to interpret it. It's quite possible to play it in either key, by using any number of rhythmic and melodic devices. 

    I could devote a whole thread to it. Oh I have.

    But here's one interesting thing that you may not have thought of. Check out what little melody you mind's ear plays along to the chords, and I'll guarantee you'll fall into one of three camps:

    Either at some point you'll find your mind has put in a little semitone-descending duplet of C---B--- over that D-C-G---, in which case you'll be landing on G as your tonic. Because you're resolving from the unstable 7th of the D to the stable major 3rd of the G. You can almost HEAR backing vocalists singing those notes, toggling back and forth between the V and the I -"oooooooh-yeahhhh", and again "oooooh-yeahhh". You'll be a staunch G-er and won't understand how others can possibly want to go back to what you think of as the V and stop there on the ooooooh!

    OR your mind will be inserting the same little descending duplet, except it'll be an augmented 4th higher - ie F#---F---, in which case you'll be wanting to resolve to the D, because the F# is the stable major 3rd of the D and the F is the unstable 7th of the G. You'll also be imagining backing singers going oooh-yeah, but for you the yeah is a turnaround ready for the final oooooh on D. You'll be a firm D-er who can't bear to leave it unresolved, hanging, on that G, it NEEDS to return home to the D!

    OR like me you'll have both pairs simultaneously, like playing xxxx78 followed by xxxx67, repeating endlessly over the 2 bars, ie playing the 3rd and 7th over D (and C), followed by the 3rd and 7th over G, and you'll be able to flip from V IV I to I bVII IV, and have to look for other cues to determine the key. Like downbeats vs upbeats, turnarounds vs settled notes, etc. 

    THIS is why nobody can agree. In both cases the resolution is strengthened by a 7th to a 3rd, but which is the right one? Muahaha. 
    So..... what key is it actually in LOL


    Well H is "home".  
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  • VeganicVeganic Frets: 266


    So..... what key is it actually in LOL



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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 370
    Get over it.. It's a cover band.. If you were in my band I would have kicked you out by now..
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 11571
    ..Is that aimed at me?
    Question everything - with the exception of the Earth being a spheroid and the moon landings.
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 370
    Emp_Fab said:
    ..Is that aimed at me?

    Yes.Just turning up and overpowering everyone to make a point is childish. Maybe as the Noob in a band it's more important to get along with the current band members rather than come in guns blazing rocking the boat. If the keyboard is playing an incorrect chord, and has been doing it for years, then I'm assuming it's sounds Ok, in that case, just go with it and not try to re-write everything to fit the "proper" way of playing things. 






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  • vizviz Frets: 4412


    I wonder what the previous guitarist did? 
    Left the band ;-)
    I laughed for about two minutes when I read that. 

    Emp, give us some examples please! I would definitely get the chords corrected if they're important. 
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  • Si_ said:
    Emp_Fab said:
    ..Is that aimed at me?

    Yes.Just turning up and overpowering everyone to make a point is childish. Maybe as the Noob in a band it's more important to get along with the current band members rather than come in guns blazing rocking the boat. If the keyboard is playing an incorrect chord, and has been doing it for years, then I'm assuming it's sounds Ok, in that case, just go with it and not try to re-write everything to fit the "proper" way of playing things. 

    Just as a reminder for us all, in the OPs view, it doesn't sound OK, it sounds wrong and he doesn't like it. That's why he started the thread.

    You may well have "kicked him out by now" for asking awkward questions about chords. Me? I'd be really happy the new guy cared enough to want to make the band sound as good as it could be.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 11571
    viz said:

    Emp, give us some examples please! I would definitely get the chords corrected if they're important. 
    One example; I'm not naming the song as a) it's a bit shit and I don't want the thread to deviate onto a 'why are you playing that crap' tangent. and b) I don't know if any of the rest of the band might read this and the song might make it obvious that it's them I'm talking about !

    Anyway, the chorus goes G G7 G Cm G Cm.  The band play G G7 G C G C (i.e C Major rather than minor).  Now, I know it's not like they're playing Db here, but it just irritates me when I don't hear the minor !  It sounds wrong - because it is wrong !
    Question everything - with the exception of the Earth being a spheroid and the moon landings.
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  • KiniooKinioo Frets: 10
    is this Jazz band ??
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    Emp_Fab said:
    viz said:

    Emp, give us some examples please! I would definitely get the chords corrected if they're important. 
    One example; I'm not naming the song as a) it's a bit shit and I don't want the thread to deviate onto a 'why are you playing that crap' tangent. and b) I don't know if any of the rest of the band might read this and the song might make it obvious that it's them I'm talking about !

    Anyway, the chorus goes G G7 G Cm G Cm.  The band play G G7 G C G C (i.e C Major rather than minor).  Now, I know it's not like they're playing Db here, but it just irritates me when I don't hear the minor !  It sounds wrong - because it is wrong !
    I’d say that’s pretty fundamental to the piece! 
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 370
    edited November 2017
    Si_ said:
    Emp_Fab said:
    ..Is that aimed at me?

    Yes.Just turning up and overpowering everyone to make a point is childish. Maybe as the Noob in a band it's more important to get along with the current band members rather than come in guns blazing rocking the boat. If the keyboard is playing an incorrect chord, and has been doing it for years, then I'm assuming it's sounds Ok, in that case, just go with it and not try to re-write everything to fit the "proper" way of playing things. 

    Just as a reminder for us all, in the OPs view, it doesn't sound OK, it sounds wrong and he doesn't like it. That's why he started the thread.

    You may well have "kicked him out by now" for asking awkward questions about chords. Me? I'd be really happy the new guy cared enough to want to make the band sound as good as it could be.
    It's not for the wrong chords of for the asking questions/raising the issue, it's for the childish "I'll just turn up and drown everyone out who's wrong".. That's not beneficial to the band, or helpful for anyone.  Turning up and starting a volume war is not "wanting to make the band sound as good as it could be".

    If It's 1 song that's making you have issues, just get over it and make sure all future new songs are correct, but don't' just blast everyone with what you think is correct. 

    If this whole thing is just because a C is played instead of a Cm then it's a storm in a teacup. not a single person in the average pub room would ever notice, actually, I bet in your average pub mix in a busy pub with a standard average/poor pub sound mix I bet 95% of people on this board wouldn't notice. and if they did notice, they need to chill and listen to the band more and enjoy themselves.

    I challenge any pub band who says that they play every cover song 100% accurately. 
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 10174
    Is it "Does your mother know?"

    If it is, I'd say it would sound shit without the Cm

    (Ok, it would still sound shit with the Cm, but I take Emp's point..)
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    Is it "Does your mother know?"

    If it is, I'd say it would sound shit without the Cm

    (Ok, it would still sound shit with the Cm, but I take Emp's point..)
    Well spotted! We do that song too. Yep, you can’t play C major there! No way. The keys should be emphasising the D to Eb there. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 11571
    @Bridgehouse - You're a clever man!  Well spotted.  We are actually doing the Ash version, which is heavier.  As far as Si_'s comment that "95% of the forum wouldn't notice” if a major is played instead of a minor, I think you don't know this forum very well and it's a bit insulting!  
    Question everything - with the exception of the Earth being a spheroid and the moon landings.
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  • Si_ said:
    <snip>
    It's not for the wrong chords of for the asking questions/raising the issue, it's for the childish "I'll just turn up and drown everyone out who's wrong".. That's not beneficial to the band, or helpful for anyone.  Turning up and starting a volume war is not "wanting to make the band sound as good as it could be".

    <snip>
    @Si_ ;Fair enough. I didn't pick that up first time through and can only agree. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 11571
    It was slightly tongue-in-cheek.  There is no 'volume war'.  The band members are mates, the only one playing the major is the keyboard player and I just play the minor.  It is an attempt to get the sound better though, as, having heard it, it sounds better when only one of us is playing the wrong chord.
    Question everything - with the exception of the Earth being a spheroid and the moon landings.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 11571
    It was slightly tongue-in-cheek.  There is no 'volume war'.  The band members are mates, the only one playing the major is the keyboard player and I just play the minor.  It is an attempt to get the sound better though, as, having heard it, it sounds better when only one of us is playing the wrong chord.
    Question everything - with the exception of the Earth being a spheroid and the moon landings.
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  • Emp_Fab said:
    It was slightly tongue-in-cheek.  There is no 'volume war'.  The band members are mates, the only one playing the major is the keyboard player and I just play the minor.  It is an attempt to get the sound better though, as, having heard it, it sounds better when only one of us is playing the wrong chord.
    I knew that. I was just apologising to Si for misunderstanding which bit of your behaviour he was so upset by. 

    Still a shame that you can't just sort it out together and move onwards though. Maybe you could persuade the keys that it sounds better if you all play a C5 (but you play the Cm anyway...) 
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