Using pedals as effects on tracks in DAW?

markv

Is it possible or worthwhile to use effects pedals on tracks that are already recorded? For example, I might want to spice up a keyboard track with my TC HoF. I already have a reverb pedal, so it would save buying another reverb effect in the form of a plugin.

So, a couple of questions occur to me, if I could ask for some advice please!

Firstly, is this even worth doing? Are guitar effects specifically tuned for guitar and therefore not suitable as general purpose effects? Or, even if it would work, would the round trip out of the DAW, out of the interface, to the pedal and back again involve too many compromises?

Secondly, I have a Scarlett Solo USB interface, so I believe the first thing I'd have to do is get one with the correct outputs - but which outputs?

Many thanks for any thoughts you have!

spark240

First...there is no right / wrong way in recording, use what you have to hand and see what happens.

Yes of course you can try the FX pedals as some sort of send / return. its akin to re-amping I guess, looking at the Scarlet I assume you could try and use an output via your FX then back into the input and record onto a separate track, a bit ropey but should work. 

Teetonetal

Logic has a built in compensation tool for using outboard gear. You will need 3 (4 if you want stereo fx) outs to make it work, 2 for the Master outs of the DAW and 1 as the FX out. Just rout the output of the track to the additional out, receive on an input and you are done (one reason I love the helix, is this is so easy). I don't know the scarlett at all, so not sure if it has enough io to do it.

Which DAW are you using?

antifash

I use my Eventide Space with my DAW but it has stereo ins and outs which I feel is necessary for outboard. 

markv

Thanks guys. I should have said - I'm using REAPER.

Good point about stereo effects @Teetonetal, I hadn't thought about stereo. Not sure I understand why I would need 4 outs though - assuming I'm just doing one track, in stereo, it seems to me I'd need 2 outs and 2 ins.

The Scarlett Solo is very basic: inputs are 1 x XLR and 1 x instrument (¼" jack), outputs are l/r RCA (hifi) and a headphone socket.

So, if I want stereo (and I might on some effects), I think I'd need something with at least 2 x XLR input (or those combined XLR/¼" sockets) and 2 x XLR output - or ¼" outputs? Looks like the Scarlett 2i4 might work.

Teetonetal

Well, it depends how you are routing your output to listen to the track? Normally 2 outs are tied to monitor speakers etc, but maybe if you have a headphone out, you could monitor on that and use the normal outs for routing? Not sure if that's possible or not.

Cirrus

I've used pedal delays and distortions in mixes in the past, and I've tried outboard compression units, and reverb pedals + rack units a few times.

In terms of workflow it can be nice, especially if you don't have a big DAW controller, because it gives you physical controls you can reach for and adjust quickly. That's not to be underestimated for its psychological impact in terms of letting you be quick and decisive.

The sonic arguments are a bit more subtle, and definitely not everyone will agree with me here. Mixing is all about getting things to sit together in a defined space. Sometimes getting out of the box gives you... a bigger box in terms of having room for sounds, which makes it easier to mix. That's especially handy for things like reverb which eat up a lot of sonic real estate - it sounds crazy, because a reverb algorithm should be the same whether it's living in a plugin or a hardware box. But sometimes they're not.

As long as you're happy with the connections between interface and pedal in terms of gain staging, avoiding ground loops and crazy impedance mismatches I'd say go for it. You won't know unless you try.

markv

@Teetonetal - the Scarlett 2i4 (to continue with that as an example) has 2 pairs of unbalanced RCA outputs, one pair of which I would use to go to monitors, and 2 balanced TRS outputs. So I think I'd need a Y cable from the TRS to go to a stereo effect?

Cirrus said:

As long as you're happy with the connections between interface and pedal in terms of gain staging, avoiding ground loops and crazy impedance mismatches I'd say go for it. You won't know unless you try.

Yeah - that's the bit I'm not sure about. As you say, I can just try - of course, I'm trying to learn from other people's experiences before splashing cash on something that will end up not working!

Cirrus

markv said:

Are guitar effects specifically tuned for guitar and therefore not suitable as general purpose effects?

Some are, but tuning for guitar typically just means not being particularly bothered about, or deliberately limiting, the low end and top end (say, 10khz+) response of the circuit. How much that matters to you, nobody can say. Typically with reverb people high pass the returns anyway, so it wouldn't be a big problem to me personally if I otherwise liked the sound the pedal was getting me.

markv said:

Or, even if it would work, would the round trip out of the DAW, out of the interface, to the pedal and back again involve too many compromises?

Nobody can answer that other than you.  The D/A and A/D conversion will do something, for sure. Whether you can hear it, whether it matters to you, just comes down to how you feel about it.

markv said:

Secondly, I have a Scarlett Solo USB interface, so I believe the first thing I'd have to do is get one with the correct outputs - but which outputs?

Many thanks for any thoughts you have!

All you need is an interface with enough line outs and line ins to do what you want. To be honest, unless you're using a fuzz face impedance matching won't be a massive problem as long as you get the gain staging right. Pedals tend to be designed to work at instrument level, so hitting the input of a pedal with +4dbu might overload them. Equally, you don't want to send them a signal so low that you have to crank up the return to get enough volume, bringing the noise floor up as well.

It gets a little fiddly sometimes because guitar pedals don't have handy input meters to let you know when the signal's right. Some pedals have loads of headroom, or can be switched for instrument/ line levels so they'll work in FX loops.

Something I do is this; plug my guitar straight into the return, strum it, and see how strong that signal is - it it peaked at, say, -10dbfs then I can safely assume that once I plug my effect pedal into the send/return with typical settings I might use into a guitar amp, as long as the return doesn't go over around -10dbfs then I'm probably not overloading the input. And once you've established that baseline, you can nudge the send volume up or down and see if the result works.

Sometimes ground loops are a problem, and I've used various strategies to combat that in the past - di boxes with ground lifts or transformer isolation like the box Morley do, or even a couple of times my wireless system. 

That said, if going down this path will involve spending a load of money, let me just ask... why? Do you think it'll make your mixes better? Or are you considering spending £400 on a new interface to save £50 on a great reverb plugin? If you want to add pedal reverb to a keyboard, why don't you just split the signal while recording onto two input tracks - one dry, and one through the pedal?

markv

@Cirrus useful advice, thanks, and your last question is a very good one. I suppose the argument in favour of a new interface is that then I could potentially use any/all of my pedals, which then gives me quite a few options. In particular the HoF and Flashback X4 are many different options in a box each.

I don't have any standalone keyboards, just software instruments.

stratman3142

Unless you're really bought in to the specific sound of a HoF or Flashback, have you considered a relatively low cost (but high quality) VST such as those produced by https://valhalladsp.com/

You might find something like Ubermod will give you the delays you want, plus loads of modulation options as well. Also, the various Valhalla reverb VSTs are excellent.

There are free demos to try.

markv

I have looked at various plugins, and I have the Valhalla Freq Echo which is very good (and the UI is very nice).

The HoF/Flashback were just examples. The motivation behind my original question was about being able to increase my options with what I already have. So maybe I'd like to run a sample through a Carbon Copy, or a drum loop through a Phase 90, or a keyboard through a Muff.

But as you point out, it's the balance between spending extra to be able to do so, versus spending that budget on good quality plugins.

Ah choices, choices ... what it is to live in a world with so many options. I can still remember how amazing it was to get my first four track ... :-)

Heartfeltdawn

markv said:

Is it possible or worthwhile to use effects pedals on tracks that are already recorded? For example, I might want to spice up a keyboard track with my TC HoF. I already have a reverb pedal, so it would save buying another reverb effect in the form of a plugin.

So, a couple of questions occur to me, if I could ask for some advice please!

Firstly, is this even worth doing? 

1. No unless there is very specific outboard gear you want to use. If I may quote you:

"The motivation behind my original question was about being able to increase my options with what I already have. "

You can increase your options far more and far cheaper with plugins than pedals. 

markv

Thanks @Heartfeltdawn, that's a very to-the-point answer.

Having read the advice here and looked into it generally, it's clear that it's a relatively complex thing to do, certainly in comparison to using plugins, for questionable benefit.

Thanks all for your thoughts!