Crap live sound rant!

mark_jwedge

Is it just me or is the sound at Rock gigs just getting worse? Went to see black stone cherry in Wolverhampton last night and as a show it was awesome but the sound was appalling. The bass drum and toms were so 'boomy' which together with an over loud bass and muddy guitars meant the whole thing turned to mush. You could barely pick out the guitar riffs during the quiet songs and when things got rocky it was just a wall of noise. It certainly wasn't too loud just a sludge of bass frequency noise. Several people complained to the sound man afterwards. Unfortunately the last 6-7 gigs I've been to have been like this and its putting me off going to anymore. The equipment at the disposal of these sound crews has never been so good so why the crap sound. How in a hall holding 800 or so can a band sound like they are at the other end of a field? Maybe its always been like this but when I was younger I never noticed as was at the front rocking out, but now im older and stay further back to soak it all in, it is really pissing me off!

ICBM

Part of the problem is the sheer power available, especially in the low frequencies, and the ease of amplifying that part of the frequency range to overpowering levels more easily than the mids and highs which have more issues with feedback.

The other part of the problem is crap sound engineers. As you say, given the technology available there should be no excuse, but too many of them seem to regard volume first, quality a distant second as the goal. It should of course be the other way round.

I often think that at least half the audience could mix the gig better if they knew their way around the desk, simply because they listen to properly mixed music all the time and they know what it should sound like. It completely baffles me why supposed professionals seem to go out of their way to produce something else.

mark_jwedge

I had that exact same thought last night, I thought I would be able to mix this better myself! I fully appreciate that you can sound check to an empty hall and get the sound spot on but when the audience are in it changes everything but even then I'm sure the gigs I have been to in the past after 3-4 songs the sound guy had sorted that out. I guess the types if bands I have seen and the music they play - black stone cherry, alter bridge, funeral for a friend for example - might be difficult to mix but these guys do this night after night with state of the art equipment. And its so obvious, there is a guy up on stage singing and or playing his backside off and you can make out a single word or note in the audience, surely as a sound guy you would think, hang on I can see he is playing a solo but I can't hear it, maybe I should adjust the mix!! The grumpy old man in me is more angry that you pay a shed load for a ticket, fuel, mileage, parking etc when you would have been better getting a few beers and lying back at home, headphones on eyes shut and getting lost in the music that way

ESBlonde

Among other problems the technology now enables engineers to reproduce efficient low frequency with ease. Also the trend to have depth on the drums and extra lows on the guitar (7 string) and bass (5 string) as well as synths that make your liver wobble. It is also possible to set the system during sound check and compensate for the bodies and additional humidity in the digital control system in advance. But the complexity of these systems ot rather their control is such that few can master it well, and who is to say those talented technicians have the magic ears of a producer to mix well. Also peoples tendancy to have few dynamics in recordings (MP3 and CDs) has created a generation that don't know any better sadly.

Cirrus

Mixing is an art and you need to get I to the right headspace for it. I do wonder if digital desks make it easy for soundmen to spend the whole gig with their head buried in menus, trying to get the compression just right on the kick track that's acting as a vst side chain to the bass compressor that's assigned to fold back mix 6. Or maybe the singers voice has gone after three weeks on the road and the band decided they'd rather have a bunch of people leave upset about that sound rather than the whole crowd talking to their mates and reading reviews about how the singers voice was like a troll gargling hair clips?

drwiddly

I think a lot of sound guys over compensate the low frequencies at the sound check as they believe that the presence of an audience will soak them up. The truth is, an audience will soak up mids and highs too so a preponderance of lows mean the overall mix turns to mud.

Mind you, I've been to gigs where all you can hear is bass, drums and vocals - guitars have disappeared. How is that a mix? Some of these guys have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

jpfamps

I concur with all of this.

Excessive bass is the bane of live music.

A further problem is the amount of distortion that can be tolerated at LF. You can push the subs much further into distortion (and hence louder) before it's noticeable than either mids or HF.

I went to see a friend of mine's band at a venue near me recently and I left half way through the set because the sound was so bad. 

The band are a 3 piece (which I would suggest is probably the simplest of mixing gigs), it was really loud, but couldn't hear the vocals or the guitar (a reasonable important feature of the band). 

Apparently the FOH engineer had been complaining that the guitar was too loud!

It was a difficult room, but when the DJ was playing records, although the sound was by far from perfect. you did get a nice balanced mix with clear vocals.

Another friend of mine where doing a gig at a prestigious London venue, and were amazed when the sound engineer before listening to anything through the PA scooped all the mids out with the FOH eq.

Drew_TNBD

Live sound guys hardly ever EQ properly. They don't even know basic resonant-peak methods and half the time they only have the bass mid treble controls on their shitty soundcraft desk.

If it were me, I'd put everything through two MOTU 8Pre's so I get 16 channels max, and I'd process using VST's and then go back into the FOH speakers. I wouldn't even bother using a console, or any outboard. Really not necessary.

That would give you some amazing EQ possibilities, paralell compression, and all that... I'd mix just like you would in a studio situation.

Cirrus

That'd work for you Drew because you can mix.

If it were me, I'd learn how to mix with volume faders, 3 band EQ per-channel, a couple of aux sends for reverb and delay, another couple for monitor feeds and a stereo graphic EQ to pull out problem frequencies. Then I'd learn how to position mics well to avoid feedback/ pickup pattern pitfalls. I'd learn how to position mic stands to do their job and be stable without falling over, while staying out of the way of the band.

I'd learn how to make friends with the band so we could collaborate on issues like stage volume, layout, monitor mixes. I'd make them feel comfortable performing on my stage.

I'd learn how to listen, how to move round the room to evaluate my mix from various positions, how the sound changes as the room fills up or empties.

Then when I could get great mixes and bands were comfortable performing on my stages, I'd bring in other things like compressors, gates, feedback suppressors, etc.


I really think people start arse about face when they begin engineering and start with the compressors, fun toys, 6 band parametrics etc. The tools distract from what's really important, IE delivering a mix where everyone can be heard and working with a bunch of strangers to make the gig great.

ICBM

Cirrus said:

That'd work for you Drew because you can mix.

If it were me, I'd learn how to mix with volume faders, 3 band EQ per-channel, a couple of aux sends for reverb and delay, another couple for monitor feeds and a stereo graphic EQ to pull out problem frequencies. Then I'd learn how to position mics well to avoid feedback/ pickup pattern pitfalls. I'd learn how to position mic stands to do their job and be stable without falling over, while staying out of the way of the band.

I'd learn how to make friends with the band so we could collaborate on issues like stage volume, layout, monitor mixes. I'd make them feel comfortable performing on my stage.

I'd learn how to listen, how to move round the room to evaluate my mix from various positions, how the sound changes as the room fills up or empties.

Then when I could get great mixes and bands were comfortable performing on my stages, I'd bring in other things like compressors, gates, feedback suppressors, etc.


I really think people start arse about face when they begin engineering and start with the compressors, fun toys, 6 band parametrics etc. The tools distract from what's really important, IE delivering a mix where everyone can be heard and working with a bunch of strangers to make the gig great.

+1

If you can't get a good mix with simple equipment - assuming it's basically capable of enough volume to get over the drum kit and with a decent frequency response - the problem is not in the equipment.

maltingsaudio

Cirrus said:

I really think people start arse about face when they begin engineering and start with the compressors, fun toys, 6 band parametrics etc. The tools distract from what's really important, IE delivering a mix where everyone can be heard and working with a bunch of strangers to make the gig great.

I think there is a certain truth in this with younger engineers who have been taught sound engineering as apart from older engineers who have learnt on the job. I do find it amazing how many engineers look at the read out before listening to the system. There are two stages to putting a PA in a room the first of which is to set it up and EQ it to the room, then once its sounding right then add the musicians and bands this is in an ideal world where there is lots of time to get it right which as we all know isn't always the case so experience and luck comes into play!   

Danny1969

While I would agree that some guys out there either can't get or don't want their mix to sound balanced you also have to take into account the problems you face when mixing live that aren't a problem in the studio or at home

Live sound with FOH stacks each side is always gonna be a compromise. High frequencies lose their energy quicker in air than low frequencies. If you mixed the gig so the treble content was about right at the back of the venue then the people at the front would have a ridiculously bright mix. If you mixed the low end so it wasn't overpowering in the corners then it would often be bass-light. Sometimes you have to mix so it sounds completely wrong at FOH position, although having the iPad ap for a lot of desks has made that not a problem anymore to a certain extent. You can correct a lot of this with more stacks, time lined arrays ..... but it's all money. 

I saw a lot of gigs in 2013, the sound for Roger Waters at Wembly was staggering good, ZZ Top at Hammersmith was quality if a bit low in volume. Steel Panther in Southampton was good but Thin Lizzy at same venue had the dreaded all kick and bass problem. I actually watched the guy mix that gig on his little digital Midas and he basically just leaned on the desk all night. 

Everyone's different but I think first job is to get the lead vocal clear, then support from guitars and keys. Drums are always the last things for me when mixing on the fly, at least in terms of surgical EQ and dynamics. I will get to em but not until the vocals and music is right. 

RocknRollDave

Agree with pretty much everything so far.


One venue that seems to consistently get things right, in my experience, is the Robin 2 in Bilston.

For those not familiar with the place, it's a medium-to-small sized venue, mostly tribute bands and people like Walter Trout, Joanne Shaw Taylor, who I guess play the blues club circuit, and then people like Go West, Toyah etc who are, let's say, in the twilight years of their careers.
BUT they just seem to give a toss about getting the sound right, it's as simple as that.

EricTheWeary

jpfamps said:

The band are a 3 piece (which I would suggest is probably the simplest of mixing gigs)

the singer in my old band also used to do our out front sound. He also used to like to go to comedy gigs and was often amazed at how bad they could get the sound of one person speaking - really, you can't get any simpler than that!

BlackStone Cherry played the Wulfrun Hall by the look of it, This is not a huge venue so I wonder if there was a case of the band just being too loud? The level coming off the stage making it difficult to manage the sound in the room, especially for the first rows.

Although when I were a lad I was a regular at gigs in the Civic Hall ( part of the same complex as the Wulfrun) and the best sound was often to be had in the foyer with the doors shut.

digitalscream

I had exactly this experience when I went to see Soundgarden at the O2 in Brixton last year with a bunch of mates. The sound was excessively crap - literally, all I could hear was bass and the kick drum (and even then it was a boomy, sludgy mess). We walked all the way round the hall, and it was pretty much the same everywhere  - with slightly varying amounts of sludge - except right in front of the stage (where we were really hearing the backline).

We even went over to stand right next to the desk in the middle of the hall to see if we could hear what the sound guy was hearing...exactly the same. It was at this point that we noticed he was using in-ear monitors to mix it.

I mean...really???? In-ears to mix a live sound, so you can't actually hear what the other 3,000 people in the place are listening to?

We gave up after half an hour and went round the corner to get some food...

ESBlonde

There are all sorts of outside influences on like mixing, not least the 'management' insisting it's got more bass to make people dance!!!
The actual mix is in fact the easy bit, the complicated part is setting and tuning the sound system for the room. Lot's of contractors will install and tune the system and then fit a lock in the digi controller or screw a panel over the controls. Unfortunately no matter how idiot proof you make the system, someone is going to come along with a better idiot sooner or later. Re-tuning for the DJ being the prime cause especially when the system is under sized or the DJ is already deaf.

If the adequate system is tuned flat(ish) and the high frequency units are above head height and all delayed back to the stage/ kick drum. Then proper mic placement usually means you hardly need to move any channel Eq, a little dynamic control maybe, set the monitor mix for sure and then mix on the faders.
This does presume there are no 'special' parts to the mix or unusual elements to the performance (like the cello player swings from a trapeze and wants distortion on his pickup signal).
Of course the real world is full of clapped out badly spec'd systems in rooms better suited to the storage of wine rather than the consumption. The old school skills of undoing all the 'fixes' and 'improvements' to get the best of the analogue crossover and trouble shooting why something doesn't work as designed are dying out (or were never learned).
Less is more.
Mix with what you have not what they had at wembley.

ICBM

This all reminds me of when I worked in a school science department. During the holidays the cleaning staff would have a ghetto blaster and run it all day at full volume so they could hear it over the floor polishers, even though it was distorted and sounded crap beyond belief. I would always turn it down slightly - only to about 3 o'clock - whenever I was near it and they weren't - of course it sounded much better, and just as loud really - and they would always whack it back up full again a few minutes later. I asked them why they did that, and they said "so we can hear it"… even though the result was that they couldn't. Trying to explain about distortion and clarity just fell on (probably literally) deaf ears.

So when I had some spare time during the term, I got into their storage cupboard, took it apart and added a couple of resistors in series with the volume pot to make full up the same as where 3 o'clock was before . As far as I know they never twigged… but it sounded miles better!

maltingsaudio

EricTheWeary said:

Although when I were a lad I was a regular at gigs in the Civic Hall ( part of the same complex as the Wulfrun) and the best sound was often to be had in the foyer with the doors shut.

There is a truth in this next time your at a gig stick your fingers in your ears this takes the volume out of the detail

ESBlonde

ICBM said:

This all reminds me of when I worked in a school science department. During the holidays the cleaning staff would have a ghetto blaster and run it all day at full volume so they could hear it over the floor polishers, even though it was distorted and sounded crap beyond belief. I would always turn it down slightly - only to about 3 o'clock - whenever I was near it and they weren't - of course it sounded much better, and just as loud really - and they would always whack it back up full again a few minutes later. I asked them why they did that, and they said "so we can hear it"… even though the result was that they couldn't. Trying to explain about distortion and clarity just fell on (probably literally) deaf ears.

So when I had some spare time during the term, I got into their storage cupboard, took it apart and added a couple of resistors in series with the volume pot to make full up the same as where 3 o'clock was before . As far as I know they never twigged… but it sounded miles better!

A bit like having a blank plate on the outboard rack and mounting a big red knob labelled  volume (or indeed no label at all). When someone asks you turn something up you reach over and oblige, await them to nod in ackowledgement that its better and get back to the job in hand. Not that I would you understand, I always turn an unused Aux send or the output of an unused compressor.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

If you can't get a good mix with simple equipment - assuming it's basically capable of enough volume to get over the drum kit and with a decent frequency response - the problem is not in the equipment.

I think this is true to an extent. But the sort of EQ's you get on a basic entry level console are often wholely inadequate. You turn down the bass control to manage the low end, and you just lose everything. So they turn it back up again and think "fuck it" - they know exactly what they want to do, but they're not willing to lose the entire low end to get the clearness they want.

You could do so much with just a laptop and enough inputs, and most people these days are way more comfortable with software than they are hardware. That's the sad truth of it.

You could have a gate for every microphone. Sidechain on the kick+bass. Parametric EQ on every input... save it all as a Pro Tools, Cubase, or Reaper session. Load it up as the band sets up the stage.

No different to using an Axe FX in a live situaiton really. Just new technology, new ways of doing things.

Danny1969

Drew_fx said:

ICBM said:

If you can't get a good mix with simple equipment - assuming it's basically capable of enough volume to get over the drum kit and with a decent frequency response - the problem is not in the equipment.

I think this is true to an extent. But the sort of EQ's you get on a basic entry level console are often wholely inadequate. You turn down the bass control to manage the low end, and you just lose everything. So they turn it back up again and think "fuck it" - they know exactly what they want to do, but they're not willing to lose the entire low end to get the clearness they want.

You could do so much with just a laptop and enough inputs, and most people these days are way more comfortable with software than they are hardware. That's the sad truth of it.

You could have a gate for every microphone. Sidechain on the kick+bass. Parametric EQ on every input... save it all as a Pro Tools, Cubase, or Reaper session. Load it up as the band sets up the stage.

No different to using an Axe FX in a live situaiton really. Just new technology, new ways of doing things.

We have all that in the digital desks we use now ..... I don't see many analog desks used these for anything other than the small pub gigs, everything has gone digital as you generally get full para EQ on every channel, dynamics on every channel, enough aux sends to run stereo ears for everybody, remote iPad mix ability, iPhone controlled personal monitor mixs or ethernet personal monitor mixers. When things were analog we had racks of outboard, huge frame desks and mic splitters to achieve the same thing we can do with 1 single QU24 or X32.  The Multicore \ stage snake is now a single Ethernet cable

You can still patch in to Reaper or any other DAW, signal hits desk AD convertor, out down firewire into Reaper, processed by plugs and back into desk channel via firewire again. It's a great way to run a specific plugin that was used in the mixing of a song