Roland Blues Cube Artist: kaput and irreparable

jpfamps

ICBM said:

jpfamps said:

Although there are some people who think that new guitar gear is better than old.

I certainly think there's an excessive reverence for old gear just for being old, in a lot of cases. Some old gear is great, but a lot is just old and knackered, and the values attached to a lot of it seem crazy, to me. If those values fall much, some of these old amps might become prohibitively expensive to repair.

I'm not even sure how maintainable even simple valve gear will be in the very long term. In fifty years, will there be valves being made? Or some of the components necessary to service valve amps, like high-voltage electrolytic caps. I'd guess we're safe for about the next twenty years, but I wouldn't like to call it much beyond that.

The problem with a lot of new gear is that it's essentially just a gamble - the majority of it never goes wrong. A small proportion does, and is then often unrepairable. Do you feel lucky, punk? I'm guessing Dottore doesn't… ditto the chap with the PA mixer, possibly.

High voltage electrolytics will be here as long as we have switch mode power supplies, which is probably going to be longer than we have valve amps.

Yeah of old of gear was cheap and nasty when is was made, and is now old, cheap and nasty.

From time to time I get customers who insist that the "vintage" piece they have is essential for "their" sound or a fantastic bargain, when in fact they are too cheap to buy a proper amp.

Valve production has been going up year on year since the 90s, so I expect we will be OK for a while yet.

20 years will (hopefully) take me to retirement.

I'd be more hopeful about a Roland Product than a Phonic......

DJH83004

Interestingly I do stil get quite a bit of vintage valve hi-fi gear in for service and repair, say Rogers, Armstrong etc. The audiophiles love the stuff.

hotpickups

I have to say this is the exactly what has stopped me buying amps / modellers of this ilk. Valve Amps and especially hand wired ones are so much easier to fix etc. Not for me to fix but I can always go to a tech who would 

impmann

Question... genuine one. You spend £x00 on a washing machine and it lasts... five years? Seven years? And then it ends up going to the dids for scrap metal. We all accept this as a given. OK some don't but they aren't the majority... run with me.

Years ago, there used to be a culture of having this repaired and I remember the Hoover branded van parked outside the house whilst a bloke in overalls sucked through his teeth about how much the repairs would cost. And then a year or two later something else broke and you'd call the repair man again... in the mean time the machine would work reasonably well (often making 'happy noises').
Fast forward the clock and its disposable - you buy something knowing that in a few years time it will have the value of a well-used tissue. And it remains reliable throughout that period until it ultimately fails and you buy a new one.
Which is a better experience for the consumer?

randella

DJH83004 said:

Interestingly I do stil get quite a bit of vintage valve hi-fi gear in for service and repair, say Rogers, Armstrong etc. The audiophiles love the stuff.

Speaking to a friend of mine who is well into the audiophile thing, I think these guys attach the same value to a valve amp as we guitarists do, i.e. those hard-to-pin-down subjective things, chiefly 'warmth'.  I'm guessing that comes from compression of the big transients in the signal due to the non-linear gain characteristics of your average valve, which 'softens' things a bit.

Anyway, I never really knew this whole world existed.  I thought we were the only ones sucking down this 1950's tech like no tomorrow.

Final word on this, can't they just call it 'distortion' like we do?

ICBM

It's the same with cars. Older cars are easier to repair for a general mechanic with universal tools and a lot of experience of component-level replacement - but they broke down more often as well. New cars are in general so reliable that in the earlier part of their life at least, they need nothing more than an occasional oil change - nothing else is expected to need attention, and if something does break it's often fixed by replacing a factory-supplied sub-assembly. In the old days most car owners would spend a few hours a month tinkering with the car, or paying someone to service it if they didn't have the skills themselves.  Nowadays many people don't even know where the bonnet catch is - they expect the car to work perfectly for months or years, and when it gets unreliable they get rid of it and get another one.

I know which experience most car owners prefer.

randella

impmann said:

Question... genuine one. You spend £x00 on a washing machine and it lasts... five years? Seven years? And then it ends up going to the dids for scrap metal. We all accept this as a given. OK some don't but they aren't the majority... run with me.

Years ago, there used to be a culture of having this repaired and I remember the Hoover branded van parked outside the house whilst a bloke in overalls sucked through his teeth about how much the repairs would cost. And then a year or two later something else broke and you'd call the repair man again... in the mean time the machine would work reasonably well (often making 'happy noises').
Fast forward the clock and its disposable - you buy something knowing that in a few years time it will have the value of a well-used tissue. And it remains reliable throughout that period until it ultimately fails and you buy a new one.
Which is a better experience for the consumer?

Funny you should say this - I'm old enough that I remember as a child our neighbour was a Hoover repairman, and had an Escort van with 'Hoover' branding all over it parked outside the house.  Hahaha, good one.  Not thought about that for 30+ years.

Legionreturns

@randella we also had white dog shit in the 80s... Not seen one of those for years! Crazy times!

impmann

ICBM said:

It's the same with cars. Older cars are easier to repair for a general mechanic with universal tools and a lot of experience of component-level replacement - but they broke down more often as well. New cars are in general so reliable that in the earlier part of their life at least, they need nothing more than an occasional oil change - nothing else is expected to need attention, and if something does break it's often fixed by replacing a factory-supplied sub-assembly. In the old days most car owners would spend a few hours a month tinkering with the car, or paying someone to service it if they didn't have the skills themselves.  Nowadays many people don't even know where the bonnet catch is - they expect the car to work perfectly for months or years, and when it gets unreliable they get rid of it and get another one.

I know which experience most car owners prefer.

Exactly.

I guarantee that there will always be those who crave those old pieces of gear (or cars - myself included) but for convenience you have to admit the modern way an attractive alternative from an experience perspective, just not so good for the wallet.

I share the OP's frustration on this though - I used to be the repair manager for Line6 UK, and I managed all the repairs/spares for Europe. There were some units that we genuinely didn't have the replacement boards for, as the cost of spinning them vs the potential return in repair revenue just didn't add up. You can genuinely have £20,000 tied up in boards that will take years, if not decades to shift. Therefore you had to have difficult conversations with musicians who could ill afford their unit to be scrap, in the same way that the manufacturer could ill afford to have so much money tied up in spare parts. There were work-arounds for some scenarios but in some cases, there wasn't a huge amount I could do other than offer a discount on a new unit as a direct sale.

I'd also get independant repair techs who would get incredibly stroppy about the company's postion of not releasing schematics to third parties - I can see both sides of this argument but ultimately, its a business decision. You are welcome to your own opinions on that, but as you didn't create the IP, its protection isn't really anything to do with anyone else. Screaming obscenities at me like one did (I won't name him - and yes, he's a "well respected" repair tech) won't change that. Releasing those schematics was a sackable offence... my bosses took it that seriously. 

In certain markets the manufacturer has an obligation to either have spare parts available to repair all products released for a period of time - however in all cases there is a piece of legalese written in to the effect of "or make discounted replacement complete units available". IIRC, the UK didn't adopt this - I could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer - but certainly for some markets that is exactly what we'd do.

To the OP - I'd make a nuisance of yourself with Roland - in a polite and non-aggressive way - as its not a great customer experience and such stories will harm the reputation of the product in the market etc. Ultimately though, you aren't actually their customer in all this (you bought secondhand) so any such decision to help you will be tempered by this. Good luck.

randella

Legionreturns said:

@randella we also had white dog shit in the 80s... Not seen one of those for years! Crazy times!

@Legionreturns - I shall keep my misty-eyed rambling reminisces to myself in future

Alright, one more.  You know why it was white?  It was calcium - down to the fact the manufacturers used to use a lot more bone meal in pet food.

Free fact for y'all there.

And yes, I'd make a nuisance of myself with Roland too.  Not rude, just persistent.

Danny1969

I think it's also a question of how people are brought up these days. Every male in my family was taught the basics of car and home maintenance from around 10 onwards. Clean the inside of the distributor cap, set the gap on the points, change the plugs etc. I remember at age 11 carrying the battery out to my dads van after it had been on charge all night and as I struggled to carry it some of the acid spilled on my jeans (back then batteries weren't sealed you topped them up with distilled water) .... later in the day at school my jeans started to disintegrate which was a bit of a problem    No one had any money to pay a garage for repairs ... people used to change engine's in the street with borrowed A frame hoists. No one paid anyone else to do plumbing, building  or electrical work ..... if something broke you fixed it yourself or got a knowledgeable mate to have a look 
These days things are a bit different. My own son and step son haven't a clue about cars, or about general home maintenance. They just want to drive or use something not repair it. 
What has changed though is the exchange of information, there are many things I would have struggled to repair if I didn't have access to the net and other peoples knowledge. It's also amazing how freely this information is giving out too by people who basically make a living from their knowledge. Sure kit is getting more complicated but check out the repairs people are doing at home with micro soldering these days, some of it is amazing 

mbe

I get the general idea that modern electronic stuff is practically worthless as the parts and manufacturing is so cheap, yet the consumer pays through the nose to own it.

It seems to be in the manufacturers' best interest to sell you a new one, dollying it up with a few new bells or whistles. 

Take modern gas boilers for an example. They need constant intervention from the repairman almost from the start yet the old style cast-iron boilers trundle on forever. They may not be efficient but energy cost savings of high tech boilers are cancelled out by expensive repair and replacement costs.

randella

mbe said:

I get the general idea that modern electronic stuff is practically worthless as the parts and manufacturing is so cheap, yet the consumer pays through the nose to own it.

Whilst that's true to a degree, things like TVs, washing machines, and microwaves have never been cheaper relative to income.  Whether they last long enough to make it economical in the long run against owning one thing for a long time and having it repaired is a different matter, but you can see why the culture's evolving the way it is.

I've never had to have a flat-panel TV repaired and never had one go kaput so maybe it's a mixed bag.  I've always been lucky with dishwashers too, although I have made superficial running repairs to a couple, adding weight to @Danny1969 's theory.

impmann

randella said:

mbe said:

I get the general idea that modern electronic stuff is practically worthless as the parts and manufacturing is so cheap, yet the consumer pays through the nose to own it.

Whilst that's true to a degree, things like TVs, washing machines, and microwaves have never been cheaper relative to income.  Whether they last long enough to make it economical in the long run against owning one thing for a long time and having it repaired is a different matter, but you can see why the culture's evolving the way it is.

I've never had to have a flat-panel TV repaired and never had one go kaput so maybe it's a mixed bag.

That is also true.

I've not seen a coin operated TV in anyone's house for a long time... and yes, they did exist back in the day, as a form of TV rental because the costs of the sets were so high.

There also used to be TV repair shops in every town - some were better than others. Some were utter charlatons.

Yes, folks did there own repairs on their house - having removed some of these "repairs" over the years there is a *bloody good reason* why you have to be a certified electrician or gas engineer. And changing engines on the street - yep, done that. It also wasn't that long ago (within the last 17 years) but I wouldn't recommend it. In winter. It sucks.

Like said above - what is the better customer experience?

Danny1969

I've repaired loads of flat panel LCD TV's .... the SMPS units always go wrong eventually, caps start bulging and fail completely meaning SMPS will start, sense short and turn off ... rinse repeat etc. It's such a common thing you can buy repair kits on ebay which contain the correct value of caps for different models 

Danny1969

I actually rented my TV and video from Radio Rentals .... as buying those 2 things cost around £850 when wages were £90 a week 

randella

Danny1969 said:

I actually rented my TV and video from Radio Rentals .... as buying those 2 things cost around £850 when wages were £90 a week 

This is what I'm getting at.  One of our TVs is an LG 42" panel, nothing posh - I think it was about £300 new.  Mrs. R. and I paid £220 (off peak) to get to Essex and back on the train the other day.

I can understand people repairing panels if it was an uber-posh job costing several thousands, but the consumer experience, for me, is that if it stops working it'll get hauled to the tip and eventually replaced.  The eco-warrior in me doesn't like it much, but like a lot of folk I have to live with the fact that my conscience gets pushed to one side when I've got nothing to watch of an evening

Would you say, to the best of your knowledge, panels are less, more, or about as reliable as old CRTs from back in the day when the rental companies were king?  Genuine question, as I know my experience is anecdotal.

mbe

We bought a basic Sony 28" flat screen TV ten years ago for £500.

Still going strong, but sometimes early adopters get an over-engineered product  before the bean-counters have the chance to initiate their 'value engineering' strategies learnt on MBA courses.

RiftAmps

It's called GETA - General Electronic Throw Away

Kettles, Toasters, Microwaves, Dishwashers, Washing Machines, Televisions etc etc etc - All designed to last for the length of the warranty period, any longer is a bonus. After that, they'd rather you buy another.

ICBM

impmann said:

I share the OP's frustration on this though - I used to be the repair manager for Line6 UK, and I managed all the repairs/spares for Europe. There were some units that we genuinely didn't have the replacement boards for, as the cost of spinning them vs the potential return in repair revenue just didn't add up. You can genuinely have £20,000 tied up in boards that will take years, if not decades to shift. Therefore you had to have difficult conversations with musicians who could ill afford their unit to be scrap, in the same way that the manufacturer could ill afford to have so much money tied up in spare parts. There were work-arounds for some scenarios but in some cases, there wasn't a huge amount I could do other than offer a discount on a new unit as a direct sale.

I'd also get independant repair techs who would get incredibly stroppy about the company's postion of not releasing schematics to third parties - I can see both sides of this argument but ultimately, its a business decision. You are welcome to your own opinions on that, but as you didn't create the IP, its protection isn't really anything to do with anyone else. Screaming obscenities at me like one did (I won't name him - and yes, he's a "well respected" repair tech) won't change that. Releasing those schematics was a sackable offence... my bosses took it that seriously.

Wasn't me . I don't know if it was you the shop I work for dealt with - it was never me who actually made the call - but on the occasions we needed to call Line 6 they were very helpful. I was sorry they closed down the operation in the UK. (As I'm sure you were!)

It doesn't even have to be anything to do with 'company policy' either - sometimes the spare parts simply get used up and then there aren't any more, and that's that. Yamaha have run out of a particular preamp board for some of their older electro-acoustics for example, even though for years they had stock - they now can't be repaired. If I remember right you said something similar about the first-series Spider Valve.

To be quite honest, discounting a new unit is going to make most people happy - they're getting an almost certainly better product. The difficulty with musical gear is that often the player simply prefers the older version.

Going back to Roland, actually the thing that's annoyed me most recently was being unable to repair a bass combo - at least without doing a huge amount of unnecessary work - because a wiring bundle from the amp chassis was *very* thoroughly glued into a hole in the cabinet, with not enough slack left to pull the chassis far enough to even investigate the fault. I did have a look at ungluing it, but it was so solid that I suspected I might have had to cut the wires and replace the whole loom. That goes almost into "designed not to be repairable" rather than "not designed to be repairable", if you see what I mean!

I gave up on that one and suggested the owner take it to a Roland dealer, because the fault was almost certainly a blown switch-mode power supply.