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  • Out of interest I'll try to find a contact at bkp and send them an email.
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  • So I should relist on eBay and say output may vary slightly from the manufacturers website?
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    I would get an answer from BKP first just so you can sell with confidence 
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  • Cheers Wez
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  • I've sent an email to the BKP technical email address - I'll publish the response here, more out of general interest.

    I'm not a techie by any means...
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  • rlwrlw Frets: 4671
    Ossyrocks said:
    WezV said:
    Makes me wonder what is an acceptable variance on a hand wound product.

    it also makes me wonder if the approximate readings provided by BKP are with a cover on or off, potted or in potted,  whether they focus more on turn count than DC resistance, and what temperature the readings were done at.

    i have had enough BKP’s to know they can vary from stated spec just as much as any other hand wound pickup.

    Has either of you asked BKP if it’s within tolerance?  It does seem low, but it’s not the most reliable measure at the best of times.  Fairly sure Tim has previously said he only includes it because the market expects it.

    Edit;  also, it will be unlabelled like all BKP’s... so you never know for sure
    I’m aware of the variances caused by temperature. When they arrived, they were very cold and the bridge measured 7.2k. The final reading of 7.7k was after three hours close to a radiator, so fully warmed up.

    Brad has been great all through this, and has offered a full refund immediately, it’s just I felt I should explain my position here given that a discussion has been started, which is about me.

    I don’t think this kind of variation is acceptable for a pickup advertised at 8.4k, which is on the hotter side of vintage PAF outputs. 

    Also, as many on here will attest, I can be trusted to return his actual pickups!

    Thanks,
    Rob
    But the vendor didn't advertise them as being 8.4k - he stated the manufacturers figures.  

    I'm certainly not saying that you haven't got a point but can a seller of secondhand goods be held responsible for a manufacturers variation, which may well be within the stated tolerance.

    What we all want to know is if the 7.7k pickup sounds any different to an 8.4k pickup.

    Just saying.
    Save a cow.  Eat a vegetarian.
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  • 4114Effects4114Effects Frets: 3131
    edited November 2017 tFB Trader
    I can only speak for myself, but the first thing I do when I buy pickups is install them in the guitar and see how they sound. I wouldn't whip out the multimeter and see how near to the advertised spec they were. If they sounded weak or wrong then i may have to measure and investigate, but if not then its all good. Like others here say, resistance is a poor indicator of actual output and tone. If they sound great then that's surely all that matters? 
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    This reinforces my belief that it's better to measure things with your ears rather than a multi-meter. 
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  • To give Rob his due, he's got a set already and he knows the output.

    He compared the new pickups to his old ones and then to the manufacturers spec that I had copied and pasted, as - the manufacturer description and spec,  and they were different. 

    The point about can a private seller of secondhand goods be held to a difference in output versus the manufacturer website is one we could go off on a totally different and legal tangent - which I'd rather not do lol. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    edited November 2017
    So I should relist on eBay and say output may vary slightly from the manufacturers website?
    Why bother to say anything about the "output" or resistance at all? Just say what they are, a set of Bareknuckle Mule pickups.

    @Ossyrocks - Out of interest, what are the resistances of the other set?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • I must be getting old. Surely the key is putting them in a guitar and playing the damm things 
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  • FelineGuitarsFelineGuitars Frets: 11496
    edited November 2017 tFB Trader
    Alegree said:
    Ossyrocks said:
    Sorry you feel the need to vent on here Brad. I’m the guy who bought them and the one returning them.

    When you buy a set of Bare Knuckle Mules (I already have a set btw), you should expect that the bridge pickup is as hot as it should be. In this case, it’s quite a way short, and not as described. It’s either a custom order low wind, a neck pickup, or faulty.

    It’s perfectly reasonable to want to return them in this case. And, they are being returned by courier, insured at full value, at my cost.

    Thanks,
    Rob
    DCR is in no way an indication of output.

    There's a very high chance this resistance is due to the cold temperature.
    No - this is very common - resistance of a pickup varies a lot by temperature
    Tell a person to hold the pickup in their hand for 5 minutes and take the reading again - it will be different to what they read before.
    Also minor differences in the resistance of the copper wire per metre or whatever  can affect the readings. 
    The pickup wont be underpowered if the turn count has been observed

    Many guitars have a re-sale value. Some you'll never want to sell.
    Stockist of: Earvana & Graphtech nuts, Faber Tonepros & Gotoh hardware, Fatcat bridges. Highwood Saddles.

    Pickups from BKP, Oil City & Monty's pickups.

      Expert guitar repairs and upgrades - fretwork our speciality! www.felineguitars.com.  Facebook too!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    How do you know the magnet strength doesn't vary by +/- 10%? That would have at least as much bearing on the output.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Philly_QPhilly_Q Frets: 22516
    edited November 2017

    Not that it helps, but BKP always write the actual DCR measurement of that particular pickup on the warranty card (which presumably you didn't have in this case, since they came in a guitar).

    It would be interesting to know what that said and if it was intentionally underwound. 

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  • I've emailed BKP. TBH I think they'll just say, it's 8% out and they're secondhand, tough.
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    I've emailed BKP. TBH I think they'll just say, it's 8% out and they're secondhand, tough.
    They should either confirm it’s within spec for a mule and you can sell happy you checked, or they will suggest it’s  a tweak to spec or custom order.   Doesn’t affect its value or chances of selling at all, but might help prevent another return like this
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  • FelineGuitarsFelineGuitars Frets: 11496
    tFB Trader
    I learnt about these variables through dealing with Bare Knuckle for the last 13-14 years as a main stockist, fitter and user 

    1) One of Bare Knuckles problems is not marking their pickups with model name or position (other than paper tag on the lead wire which always comes off). This means that someone could have a stormy Monday or a Riff Raff and through not recalling accurately think they have a mule.

    2) I also went through a process of developing a couple of pickups with Ash at Oil City . 
    When I was trying out prototypes I would test DC readings and I found variations like this.
    Learning about the temperature relationship with DC resistance readings was an eye opener
    If fact I held a pickup in my hand whilst discussing it with Ash - initial concerns about a low DC read were hard to justify as I watched the DC reading climb as my hand gently warmed the pickup. 

    3) also the variation of resistance per /foot/metre of wire that can vary from one roll of wire to the next means that you can get a fair window of readings  over different days production.


    4) As ICBM said the level of gauss in the magnet could have a more dramatic effect than a 10% variance in DC resistance.

    5) With a hand wound pickup that is genuinely hand wound (as in hand feeding the wire onto a rotating bobbin) there is always going to be a variation from one pickup to the next irrespective of wire resistance: several factors will come into play
    Scatter pattern and adherence in terms of number of turns per layer.
    Tension that the wire is held with as it is fed onto the bobbin
    Let's assume that the turn count was kept accurate through an auto turn count shut-off>

    But throw all these variables into the mix at the same time and it does mean that each and every pickup will have a bit of it's own thing going on, and bizarrely a pickup with a lower DC may actually sound bigger and louder  if the other variables tipped it that way.

    I think manufacturers are in a tough corner with pickups (or even guitars) where there are so many factors that they can't be in total control of.

    Many guitars have a re-sale value. Some you'll never want to sell.
    Stockist of: Earvana & Graphtech nuts, Faber Tonepros & Gotoh hardware, Fatcat bridges. Highwood Saddles.

    Pickups from BKP, Oil City & Monty's pickups.

      Expert guitar repairs and upgrades - fretwork our speciality! www.felineguitars.com.  Facebook too!

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  • Modulus_AmpsModulus_Amps Frets: 2569
    tFB Trader
    just buy some 1k 1/8w resistors, solder them inline under the ribbon and then sell them on as over winds and maybe get more for them......  ha ha I am saying this as a joke BTW... really!
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  • So @Felineguitars what you're saying is potentially get three sets of The Mule pickups and all three could be different outputs?


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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    So @Felineguitars what you're saying is potentially get three sets of The Mule pickups and all three could be different outputs?


    That is a given
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