is the EU agenda for Brexit negotiations reasonable?

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Demanding that the EU's compensation package be approved by the Uk before discussions on future trade can begin seems very unusual to me.

Can anyone think of anything analogous in real life, other than a divorce where one party gets to pay for maintenance with no guaranteed access to their children
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  • I would refuse to budge and sweat them. Thye have plenty to lose if we don't pay. When the other party is bleating like Barnier is before a set of talks that tells a lot.

    We havent said we won't pay we just want to cut a deal on all aspects together as a balanced deal, they want us to agree to buy the trade deal by naming their price but not telling us what the trade deal looks like until we agree to pay.

    If we cave in and agree the exit payment they will will stitch us up on trade afterwards.


    "...I can hear you breathing down the hall"
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  • I would refuse to budge and sweat them. Thye have plenty to lose if we don't pay. When the other party is bleating like Barnier is before a set of talks that tells a lot.

    We havent said we won't pay we just want to cut a deal on all aspects together as a balanced deal, they want us to agree to buy the trade deal by naming their price but not telling us what the trade deal looks like until we agree to pay.

    If we cave in and agree the exit payment they will will stitch us up on trade afterwards.


    it seems pretty likely that it's a stitch up, hence me not worrying about no figure being reached yet, I don't really understand why the UK agreed to the agenda
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  • btw for anyone reading, AFAIK the UK pays 19% of the net contributions into the EU every year, so it's no surprise that the EU will be a bit short of cash after we leave
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  • btw for anyone reading, AFAIK the UK pays 19% of the net contributions into the EU every year, so it's no surprise that the EU will be a bit short of cash after we leave
    Are you including our rebate in that?
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 5567
    edited November 2017
    May should go on the relentless attacking PR offensive now and get the EU on the defensive foot. The problem is I don't think she has an assertive bone in her body, we need a "ladies not for turning" Maggie staunch not the dithering, stuttering mess of a PM we have now. 
    "...I can hear you breathing down the hall"
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4188
    edited November 2017
    thomasw88 said:
    btw for anyone reading, AFAIK the UK pays 19% of the net contributions into the EU every year, so it's no surprise that the EU will be a bit short of cash after we leave
    Are you including our rebate in that?
    Yes, after all rebates, after all money paid back, we pay 19% of the total income, 2nd largest contributor after Germany
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  • We could always threaten to stay....
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  • thomasw88 said:
    btw for anyone reading, AFAIK the UK pays 19% of the net contributions into the EU every year, so it's no surprise that the EU will be a bit short of cash after we leave
    Are you including our rebate in that?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/europe/09/eu_budget_spending/img/graph_net_contrib_466x485.gif
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2116
    We could always threaten to stay....
    LOL that would piss them off!
    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2277
    edited November 2017
    We should mention that we might revoke our declaration to leave, then invoke it again, resetting the two year window, and keep doing that until progress has been made. Those are the rules the EU set, so those are the rules we need to play by.
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2324
    We could call their bluff and walk away without a deal.

    If we didn't have complete cretins in charge, but smart people who had a plan B in place, it would be a bold and courageous move. Still likely to require a 70s style IMF bailout of the UK, but we might get away with it.



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  • Demanding that the EU's compensation package be approved by the Uk before discussions on future trade can begin seems very unusual to me.

    Of course it's unusual. A non-binding referendum with no specifics as to what happens afterwards that gets turned into action by a government who wanted to bypass Parliament can only ever be unusual! 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • To answer the OP: the EU has never been "reasonable". "Ever closer union" - what bollocks!
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • To answer the OP: the EU has never been "reasonable". "Ever closer union" - what bollocks!
    Presumably it has been reasonable at some point, hence us joining it.
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 2363
    The EU seem to have forgotten that they are not the only ones that can impose terms on the other side. It's a negotiation of two equal parties and will go right to the wire (there will be some nods and winks behind the scenes that neither side can admit to yet, lots of face needs to be saved).
    If the EU allow the UK to get anything like a decent trade deal they know thier empire will unravel with the likes of the Dutch, Danes and Italians all with the possibility of being independent. I'm suprised the French haven't been more bombastic about thier precious independence, but then they have been invaded twice in a century and must see the EU as a solution to what used to be Europes petty wars all the time.
    I do worry about the future but we have to accept that the sooner we cut of the painful bit and get on with it the sooner all will settle down.

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  • Demanding that the EU's compensation package be approved by the Uk before discussions on future trade can begin seems very unusual to me.
    It's not an "EU compensation package", but payments that the UK has already committed to, including the current budget period, some pension payments and other stuff. The Prime Minister agreed to cover these payments in her Florence speech, but despite having made that commitment isn't able to say exactly what the payments are.

    The process may seem unusual, but it (agreeing payment, Ireland and UK/EU citizens rights) was agreed by the EU and UK before talks began.


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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2324
    What many people seem to forget that right now, the EU benefits greatly from trade with the UK as many global businesses are based in the UK precisely because of our membership of the single market, coupled with our less restrictive labour market laws (in comparison e.g. to France, Germany, Spain).

    But if we crash out of the single market, these companies have said that they will move their operations elsewhere. The idea that there will be a short period of pain and adjustment and then everything will settle down is ludicrous. The UK will become a non-entity, we are not in the 1950s anymore with powerful, nationalised industries. Companies will depart the UK.

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  • mellowsun said:
    We could call their bluff and walk away without a deal.

    If we didn't have complete cretins in charge, but smart people who had a plan B in place, it would be a bold and courageous move. Still likely to require a 70s style IMF bailout of the UK, but we might get away with it.
    Walking away without a deal would have a serious negative impact on the Ireland, the UK's ability to trade efficiently with Europe (due to tariff and non-tariff barriers), and many other areas of international cooperation.



    Walking away without a deal would not be bold and courageous, it would be an incredibly foolish act of self harm.

    As you said, there is no plan B. Actually, I don't think there is a plan A.
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  • To answer the OP: the EU has never been "reasonable". "Ever closer union" - what bollocks!
    Presumably it has been reasonable at some point, hence us joining it.
    "We" were persuaded of the trading benefits of the EEC. The political and economic union crap was not known about until much later. I was too young (by a month or two) to have voted on the EEC and I think I'd have been for it at the time, unless someone had told me about the intended political integration, in which case I'd have been as against it then as I am now.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • @Austrian John you've missed the point. None of this is about money. It's about who runs the country.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2324

    "We" were persuaded of the trading benefits of the EEC. The political and economic union crap was not known about until much later. I was too young (by a month or two) to have voted on the EEC and I think I'd have been for it at the time, unless someone had told me about the intended political integration, in which case I'd have been as against it then as I am now.
    We opted out of the ever closer integration stuff years ago.

    The fact is we had a brilliant deal: full access to the single market, a leading role in Europe, have equal input to decision making, and opt outs of everything we didn't like with the exception of free movement.

    Rather than 'It's about who runs the country', it's really 'It's about whether the Daily Mail runs the country or not'
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  • mellowsun said:
    We opted out of the ever closer integration stuff years ago.

    The fact is we had a brilliant deal: full access to the single market, a leading role in Europe, have equal input to decision making, and opt outs of everything we didn't like with the exception of free movement.

    Rather than 'It's about who runs the country', it's really 'It's about whether the Daily Mail runs the country or not'
    We very wisely rejected the Euro. We didn't reject Maastricht Lisbon or Schengen. The Daily Wail has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • hywelghywelg Frets: 1529
    The EU is completely undemocratic and that's why we have to leave. We had one vote at a table of 28. Estonia gets one vote. And the people we elect to the European parliament can only rubber stamp plans brought forward by the executive. And guess echo runs the executive. Pretty much France and Germany.  

    And the whole shebang is run by unelected bureaucrats who have no concept of running a 'tihht ship'. I mean FFS two headquarters! and swapping between them just to keep little old Luxembourg  happy. Nutters with concept of accountability.  
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  • hywelghywelg Frets: 1529
    edited November 2017
    And the single reason why the EU stance is nonsensical is because we cannot propose a solution to the Eire/Northern Ireland border simply because we have no idea what customs terms will be in place and that can't be decided until we start trade talks. Catch 22
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  • @Austrian John you've missed the point. None of this is about money. It's about who runs the country.
    I think the answer to that is no-one :'(
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  • @Austrian John you've missed the point. None of this is about money. It's about who runs the country.
    I think the answer to that is no-one :'(
    ATM you are probably right, sir. May not be a bad thing: the Belgians had no government for over a year and not many people noticed
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2324
    mellowsun said:
    We opted out of the ever closer integration stuff years ago.

    The fact is we had a brilliant deal: full access to the single market, a leading role in Europe, have equal input to decision making, and opt outs of everything we didn't like with the exception of free movement.

    Rather than 'It's about who runs the country', it's really 'It's about whether the Daily Mail runs the country or not'
    We very wisely rejected the Euro. We didn't reject Maastricht Lisbon or Schengen. The Daily Wail has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    You're wrong there, the UK rejected Schengen, and when Schengen was integrated into the Treaty of Amsterdam we got a specific opt out from the Schengen rules. We do participate in certain aspects, by agreement, however.

    It's also worth understanding what the 'ever closer union' phrase actually means and what it was referring to. Here's a good explanation:

    https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/

    The Daily Wail has a lot to do with it as most people's lack of understanding of EU legislation is largely down to their campaign of deliberate misinformation.

    The EU has many faults, but we really did have the best deal out of all member states, and we were crazy to throw it away.
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  • mellowsun said:

    It's also worth understanding what the 'ever closer union' phrase actually means and what it was referring to. Here's a good explanation:

    https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/

    someone should tell the rest of the EU then, especially that Junckers arsehole
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2277
    mellowsun said:

    The EU has many faults, but we really did have the best deal out of all member states, and we were crazy to throw it away.
    That is why the referendum was so silly in the first place. So the status quo was better than chaos, but when given the choice between supporting the EUs current path (which is what voting to remain would imply) and voting out, it could only be out for me. The EU needs to take their share of the blame for the chaos though. They wrote the rules, they refused to negotiate ahead of article 50, which would have been the best thing for both sides. We exercised our democratic right, but they have done their best to make it as difficult as possible.

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  • mellowsun said:
    mellowsun said:
    We opted out of the ever closer integration stuff years ago.

    The fact is we had a brilliant deal: full access to the single market, a leading role in Europe, have equal input to decision making, and opt outs of everything we didn't like with the exception of free movement.

    Rather than 'It's about who runs the country', it's really 'It's about whether the Daily Mail runs the country or not'
    We very wisely rejected the Euro. We didn't reject Maastricht Lisbon or Schengen. The Daily Wail has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    You're wrong there, the UK rejected Schengen, and when Schengen was integrated into the Treaty of Amsterdam we got a specific opt out from the Schengen rules. We do participate in certain aspects, by agreement, however.

    It's also worth understanding what the 'ever closer union' phrase actually means and what it was referring to. Here's a good explanation:

    https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/

    The Daily Wail has a lot to do with it as most people's lack of understanding of EU legislation is largely down to their campaign of deliberate misinformation.

    The EU has many faults, but we really did have the best deal out of all member states, and we were crazy to throw it away.
    first reply:
    what do you think "ever closer union" means?

    have a read of this: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2012:326:FULL:EN:PDF#page=18
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