is the EU agenda for Brexit negotiations reasonable?

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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited November 2017

    It makes me think it was a retail tax, not something that affected suppliers further up the wholesale chain. Is that right?
    No idea, I'm afraid.  I wasn't alive 'til after in 1973.

    I'd tax iphones at 40%-50%, though.   

    And iphones for the under 16s at 75%.  ;p
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  • I'd tax all mobile phones at 80%, and hifi, guitars and guitar amplifiers at 0% :)
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    I'd tax all mobile phones at 80%, and hifi, guitars and guitar amplifiers at 0% :)
    I'd tax new Gibson and PRS guitars at 80%.   Those who buy Gibsons don't mind paying over the top.    And PRS owners are blues-playing lawyer types.  
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2056
    Whitecat said:
    How would this solve the Irish problem?
    I don't think there will be any answer to the Irish border question until Ireland becomes one un-partitioned country. Then they won't need a border and neither will we. Apologies to any staunch Unionists ...
    I think you're right with this one, Phil.  

    ROI could leave the EU (Eirexit?) and rejoin UK - then you wouldn't need to apologise to the Unionists!  :3
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    If we just do the sensible thing and remain in the single market or at worst the customs union then the Irish border won't matter anyway.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8779
    edited November 2017
    ICBM said:
    If we just do the sensible thing and remain in the single market or at worst the customs union then the Irish border won't matter anyway.
    But thats what the EU won't let us do! They want "free movement" and all the other crap. If we could just have the trade agreement we signed up for in 1975 (although I didn't, I was too young) there would be less reason to leave the EU, but sadly, the EU is not what the EEC used to be.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    Phil_aka_Pip said:

    But thats what the EU won't let us do! They want "free movement" and all the other crap. If we could just have the trade agreement we signed up for in 1975 (although I didn't, I was too young) there would be less reason to leave the EU, but sadly, the EU is not what the EEC used to be.
    It's not crap, it's what makes the single market work properly.

    We should simply leave the EU and rejoin the EFTA - which is what we were in before we joined the EU. The referendum question said nothing about anything other than whether we should leave the EU. We should do that.

    The EFTA works well for Norway and Switzerland (and Lichtenstein!), which have land borders with the EU.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Colms2005Colms2005 Frets: 15
    edited November 2017
    The idea of "free movement" was already in EU law prior to 1975. It was called Regulation 1612 of 1968 and was carved out of the Free Movement element of the 1957 Treaty of Rome. So it was part of the deal when the UK and Ireland both joined up on the 1st of January 1973.



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  • @Colms2005 I don't care WHEN it was first instigated , it is still crap
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    Colms2005 said:

    Colms..Guitar playing lawyer type
    Do you have, or have you had, a Gibson or PRS?
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    Colms2005 said:
    The idea of "free movement" was already in EU law prior to 1975. It was called Regulation 1612 of 1968 and was carved out of the Free Movement element of the 1957 Treaty of Rome. So it was part of the deal when the UK and Ireland both joined up on the 1st of January 1973.
    In the mid 1970s, which countries were in the precursor to the EU?    Did it include Poland, Romania, etc? 
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  • No PRS’s I’m a lawyer not a dentist. 
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Nitefly said:
    Whitecat said:
    How would this solve the Irish problem?
    I don't think there will be any answer to the Irish border question until Ireland becomes one un-partitioned country. Then they won't need a border and neither will we. Apologies to any staunch Unionists ...
    I think you're right with this one, Phil.  

    ROI could leave the EU (Eirexit?) and rejoin UK - then you wouldn't need to apologise to the Unionists!  :3
    The Irish are being used as a pawn by the EU, and ultimately it’s them who are going to suffer the most from the EU running the clock down. 

    I expected the EU to be as difficult as possible with the U.K, I didn’t expect them to throw Ireland under the bus in the process. 
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  • Garthy said:
    Nitefly said:
    Whitecat said:
    How would this solve the Irish problem?
    I don't think there will be any answer to the Irish border question until Ireland becomes one un-partitioned country. Then they won't need a border and neither will we. Apologies to any staunch Unionists ...
    I think you're right with this one, Phil.  

    ROI could leave the EU (Eirexit?) and rejoin UK - then you wouldn't need to apologise to the Unionists!  :3
    The Irish are being used as a pawn by the EU, and ultimately it’s them who are going to suffer the most from the EU running the clock down. 

    I expected the EU to be as difficult as possible with the U.K, I didn’t expect them to throw Ireland under the bus in the process. 
    They already threw Greece under the bus
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Yes but to be fair the Greeks were living like rock stars on the wages of roadies, then couldn’t pay it all back when the music stopped. Ireland’s fate is out of their hands and not of their doing. 
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  • Ireland retains a veto which it will use if it does not find a UK proposal acceptable. This is a fact.
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2056
    Colms2005 said:
    Ireland retains a veto which it will use if it does not find a UK proposal acceptable. This is a fact.
    I'm sure they will.  And doubtless the other 26 will also find something not  to their taste.

    Hey-ho, no-deal here we come.

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  • Garthy said:
    Yes but to be fair the Greeks were living like rock stars on the wages of roadies, then couldn’t pay it all back when the music stopped. Ireland’s fate is out of their hands and not of their doing. 
    Ireland made many of the same errors as Greece
    "By 30 January 2009, Ireland’s government debt had become the riskiest in the euro zone, surpassing Greece’s sovereign bonds, according to credit-default swap prices"
    In mid-2011 the ratings agency Moody's proceeded to downgrade Ireland's government bond ratings to junk.[96]

    from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger#Aftermath ;

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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Garthy said:
    Yes but to be fair the Greeks were living like rock stars on the wages of roadies, then couldn’t pay it all back when the music stopped. Ireland’s fate is out of their hands and not of their doing. 
    Ireland made many of the same errors as Greece
    "By 30 January 2009, Ireland’s government debt had become the riskiest in the euro zone, surpassing Greece’s sovereign bonds, according to credit-default swap prices"
    In mid-2011 the ratings agency Moody's proceeded to downgrade Ireland's government bond ratings to junk.[96]

    from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger#Aftermath ;

    Oh in that respect I don't disagree- but in the case of Brexit the EU are throwing Ireland under the bus as a by-product of a disagreement with a third party, they are 'collateral damage' if you will, and oddly everyone seems absolutely fine with it.
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  • As an immigration lawyer I have noticed a considerable number of UK based business’s enquire about setting up in Ireland. Ireland will probably do quite well following upon a Brexit. We have a relatively young well educated population who speak English as their primary language.
    The reimposition of a hard border will of course be a major pain in the ass. It may even unfortunately raise the hackles of people who were not afraid to use violence in the past.
    Hard borders however exist elsewhere in the world and of course on the periphery of the EU right now.
    It will be challenging for the Irish agriculture sector who have always relied upon selling to the UK market but I don’t think it will be fatal. It might actually be a benefit  in disguise in that it will compel certain sectors of the Irish economy to diversify its markets.



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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2300
    ICBM said:
    If we just do the sensible thing and remain in the single market or at worst the customs union then the Irish border won't matter anyway.
    But thats what the EU won't let us do! They want "free movement" and all the other crap. 
    What's wrong with free movement? Don't you want to be able to travel, live and work anywhere in Europe?

    Free movement in Europe is one of the great post-war achievements. For most people in the world, they are stuck in the area of their birth and can't move or travel without permission and a visa. 

    By abandoning free movement, we are basically returning to the days of being peasants and having to doff your cap and ask your local lord for permission to travel.

    It flabbergasts me that people want to abandon free movement.
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited November 2017
    ^ LOL.    You can still travel  and live/work abroad without EU membership and its freedom of movement.

    mellowsun said:
     
    By abandoning free movement, we are basically returning to the days of being peasants and having to doff your cap and ask your local lord for permission to travel. 

    wtf?!    you have to be joking us.  are you serious?

    "your local lord"?  LOL. 

    Everything pre-EU was feudal society. Not.

    What do you think happened during the 19th century and the Industrial Revolution?   People moved all over the country and even migrated overseas to places as far as away as Australia and America
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    mellowsun said:
    ICBM said:
    If we just do the sensible thing and remain in the single market or at worst the customs union then the Irish border won't matter anyway.
    But thats what the EU won't let us do! They want "free movement" and all the other crap. 
    What's wrong with free movement? Don't you want to be able to travel, live and work anywhere in Europe?

    Free movement in Europe is one of the great post-war achievements. For most people in the world, they are stuck in the area of their birth and can't move or travel without permission and a visa. 

    By abandoning free movement, we are basically returning to the days of being peasants and having to doff your cap and ask your local lord for permission to travel.

    It flabbergasts me that people want to abandon free movement.
    So how did I have job offers and relocation packages for Dallas and Perth then?
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2300
    Ro_S said:
    ^ LOL.    You can still travel  and live/work abroad without EU membership and its freedom of movement.

    Sure, but after 2019 you'll likely need a visa if we leave the EEA/single market.
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  • mellowsun said:
    ICBM said:
    If we just do the sensible thing and remain in the single market or at worst the customs union then the Irish border won't matter anyway.
    But thats what the EU won't let us do! They want "free movement" and all the other crap. 
    What's wrong with free movement? Don't you want to be able to travel, live and work anywhere in Europe?

    Free movement in Europe is one of the great post-war achievements. For most people in the world, they are stuck in the area of their birth and can't move or travel without permission and a visa. 

    By abandoning free movement, we are basically returning to the days of being peasants and having to doff your cap and ask your local lord for permission to travel.

    It flabbergasts me that people want to abandon free movement.
    No, not especially. You only feel the need to move elsewhere when your current place is crap. I think here is crap, but you look at elsewhere and its even worse. Evidently there's lot of people that live elsewhere and they think its crap compared to here which is why they're all trying to get in, illegally if necessary.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    mellowsun said:
    Ro_S said:
    ^ LOL.    You can still travel  and live/work abroad without EU membership and its freedom of movement.

    Sure, but after 2019 you'll likely need a visa if we leave the EEA/single market.
    Like Americans. It's not a problem as you can do it online and get one that covers the whole EU. I actually think we'll keep free movement with the UK government saying it has a right to control numbers.


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  • US persons wishing to come to the EU and take up employment in the EU cannot achieve this by making one application.
    US passport holders are visa exempt for most countries in the EU which means they can come for a 90 day visit with no employment rights. A US citizen wishing to be employed in an EU member state would need to apply for a work permit which usually is only issued in circumstances where no other EU citizen can take the job or where the individual member state has a shortage of that persons particular skill, such as medical doctors or engineers.
    US citizen wants to come to Europe and take up employment in all EU member states?
    I’m afraid this only happens in Woody Allen movies.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    Fretwired said:

    I actually think we'll keep free movement with the UK government saying it has a right to control numbers.
    Alternatively a customs union as the EU has with Turkey would not allow free movement but would avoid the need for a hard border in Ireland.

    It would probably be quite fitting given that one of the bogus scare stories from the Leave campaign - and the only one Theresa May refuted - was that Turks would have an automatic right to come to the UK.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    Colms2005 said:
    US persons wishing to come to the EU and take up employment in the EU cannot achieve this by making one application.


    Yes they can if they have a firm job offer, especially from firms that operating internationally like MIcrosoft or Google. There is an EU/US agreement. I worked for an EU-based international company with a US presence and employees could move around quite easily without a visa. We even recruited a US CEO.
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  • This is called intra company transfer and it requires someone to have been employed by the same company outside of the EU. This is hardly comparable to someone taking up employment in an open market.
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