is the EU agenda for Brexit negotiations reasonable?

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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2300
    Colms2005 said:
    This is called intra company transfer and it requires someone to have been employed by the same company outside of the EU. This is hardly comparable to someone taking up employment in an open market.
    Intra-company transfers were one of the things that decimated wages in IT post-2000.
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    mellowsun said:
    Colms2005 said:
    This is called intra company transfer and it requires someone to have been employed by the same company outside of the EU. This is hardly comparable to someone taking up employment in an open market.
    Intra-company transfers were one of the things that decimated wages in IT post-2000.
    As well as the dot.com bubble bursting which caused a recession in Germany, France & USA ad other tech rich environments.
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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 760
    edited November 2017
    So Simply Politics are reporting that a Brexit Bill has been agreed at £57 billion based on news from 2 papers. Great deal that ffs. (If its true of course)

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • @Boromedic that's probably the "clarification" that the Junckers bastard wanted. Whether he actually gets it remains to be seen.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • I look forward to going back over this in hindsight many years in the future.... I think we're going to be worse off in the long run but I hope I'm proved wrong.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • "You'll be worse off out" = bribe to stay in. I'm not having it.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    Boromedic said:
    So Simply Politics are reporting that a Brexit Bill has been agreed at £57 billion based on news from 2 papers. Great deal that ffs. (If its true of course)
    It's not how much you pay but what you get for your money. If it lubricates trade talks that results in a tariff free trade deal (as I suspect) then its money well spent. There are German MPs and business leaders demanding a tarrif free deal with the UK. Given Merkel's weakened position and Macron's poll ratings I'm sure that could be agreed. It also solves the thorny Irish border problem.

    The EU won't want to piss off the UK that much as I suspect that within the next 10 years they will look to get us to rejoin.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31570
    Fretwired said:

    It's not how much you pay but what you get for your money. If it lubricates trade talks that results in a tariff free trade deal (as I suspect) then its money well spent. There are German MPs and business leaders demanding a tarrif free deal with the UK. Given Merkel's weakened position and Macron's poll ratings I'm sure that could be agreed. It also solves the thorny Irish border problem.
    Exactly this.

    Whatever it takes to avoid a hard border in Ireland and not to put up barriers to our closest and most important export market is worth it, or it will cost us far more than the so-called 'exit fee'.

    Fretwired said:

    The EU won't want to piss off the UK that much as I suspect that within the next 10 years they will look to get us to rejoin.
    I'd guess that boat has sailed. I'm not even sure I would like it to happen, now - although I would like to see us rejoin the EEA/EFTA - rejoining the EU would open up the divisions in the UK even further. I think it would need to wait at least a generation or more.

    And no, I am not becoming a Leaver :).
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • You don't want a "hard border" in Ireland? Then undo that damnfool partition!
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31570
    You don't want a "hard border" in Ireland? Then undo that damnfool partition!
    It's a little late for that now…

    We need to do the best we can in the present, not the past - including June 23rd 2016.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • @ICBM I seriously don't think the "border problem" can go away while Ireland is partitioned
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31570
    @ICBM I seriously don't think the "border problem" can go away while Ireland is partitioned
    It can as long as both sides operate under the same customs and regulatory rules - just as there isn't a hard border between Norway and Sweden, or between Switzerland and any of the surrounding EU countries.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Fretwired said:
    Boromedic said:
    So Simply Politics are reporting that a Brexit Bill has been agreed at £57 billion based on news from 2 papers. Great deal that ffs. (If its true of course)
    It's not how much you pay but what you get for your money. If it lubricates trade talks that results in a tariff free trade deal (as I suspect) then its money well spent. There are German MPs and business leaders demanding a tarrif free deal with the UK. Given Merkel's weakened position and Macron's poll ratings I'm sure that could be agreed. It also solves the thorny Irish border problem.

    The EU won't want to piss off the UK that much as I suspect that within the next 10 years they will look to get us to rejoin.
    Maybe, seeing how flaky we've been in negotiations though who knows. Merkels weakened position could also lead to Germanys wishes being ignored (can't see it though like you say), who knows and thats the issue really. All this instability will hopefully lead to a period of stability later fingers crossed.

    Please can someone actually and succinctly spell out what we are gaining by leaving though? All I've read is spurious conjecture and projections but no actual hard idea of what exactly we are getting out of this. Don't mention immigration either because thats not the big problem its made out to be, our domestic policies allowed a lot of that to go on regardless of EU rules.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • ICBM said:
    @ICBM I seriously don't think the "border problem" can go away while Ireland is partitioned
    It can as long as both sides operate under the same customs and regulatory rules - just as there isn't a hard border between Norway and Sweden, or between Switzerland and any of the surrounding EU countries.
    But that would mean either Norn Iron taking on EU rules (and by implication the rest of the UK not leaving the EU) or Eire complying with UK rules, which ain't going to happen.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31570
    Phil_aka_Pip said:

    But that would mean either Norn Iron taking on EU rules (and by implication the rest of the UK not leaving the EU) or Eire complying with UK rules, which ain't going to happen.
    No, it simply means remaining in either the single market or a customs union. We can leave the EU and still do that - as I've pointed out several times Norway and Switzerland (and Lichtenstein) are not in the EU. Turkey has a customs union and is not in the EU (or ever likely to be, no matter what some Eurocrats seem to think) or even the EFTA.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • @ICBM OK, if that would undo all the "ever closer union" crap, and just get us back to the trading agreement we thought we'd signed up for in 1975 I'd tolerate it.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31570
    @ICBM OK, if that would undo all the "ever closer union" crap, and just get us back to the trading agreement we thought we'd signed up for in 1975 I'd tolerate it.
    Same here. Obviously coming to it from the opposite direction, but I don't have a problem with it. In fact, rejoining the EFTA (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Lichtenstein) would take us back directly to the situation before 1973, when we were a member of it before we joined the (then) EEC.

    Interestingly the EFTA is *not* actually a full customs union with the EU, but has comprehensive free trade agreements with it and so hard borders are not necessary.

    The question is, would the majority of the electorate agree with that as well? My guess is they would. The problem is that May and her hardline 'negotiators' seem to have set their faces against it already.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 534
    Remaining in the Customs Union in my view would be the "easiest sell" to the electorate unless the EU give us yet more leeway on the Single Market "obligations".....i.e. free movement of people.

    As the "Leave" camp have said on many occasions, WTO trade is not bad, tariffs on average are pretty low so the Customs Union option gives us that as well as tariff free trade with the EU. Any dreams about the UK boldly striking advantageous trade deals elsewhere, CU membership blocks that option but in my view UK  bilateral Trade Deals will take too long and we'd probably be shafted by more experienced and powerful countries anyway.

    As for Services....very important for UK and CU doesn't cover that. We'll just have to set up legal entities within our chosen target markets. It won't be cheap but it would probably work. 

    Or will the EU give us a deal on Single Market? It might happen just on the basis of the size of the payment that we will doubtlessly be making. That in itself may prevent the flood gates from opening on other EU states seeking the same deal?

    As for ECJ jurisdiction.....another quoted "red line". I may well be wrong on this point but isn't the ECJ the ultimate arbiter on trade disputes with / within the EU? Therefore anyone who wishes to trade with EU will have to answer to the ECJ at some point? I cite Microsoft and Google as examples of where they fell foul of EU law and were sanctioned as a result. The last time I looked, the U.S was not a member of the EU.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    ICBM said:

    Fretwired said:

    The EU won't want to piss off the UK that much as I suspect that within the next 10 years they will look to get us to rejoin.
    I'd guess that boat has sailed. I'm not even sure I would like it to happen, now - although I would like to see us rejoin the EEA/EFTA - rejoining the EU would open up the divisions in the UK even further. I think it would need to wait at least a generation or more.

    And no, I am not becoming a Leaver :).
    In about 10 years time many of the baby boomers who voted for leave will be dead. I voted Brexit but I'm convinced that in the next 20 years the UK will rejoin. If you area senior EU official would you want to totally piss off the UK? No. Play the long game.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • Jock68Jock68 Frets: 149
    Staying in the Protectionist Bubble that is the EU is the road to Disaster, this world has be come smaller and we are now trading Globally, and that is through the WTO.  Look at the trade inside the Bubble and the trade outside the bubble. 

    A good example of Protectionism is Coffee.  Germany is one of the the biggest exporter of Coffee in the World, but you are thinking.. they do not grow Coffee beans.  The EU put a 10% Tariff on Coffee Granules coming in to the EU and % Tariff on Coffee Beans.  As a Nation why do we not just buy the finished product from those countries rather than send them Foreign Aid, surly that is a Win Win.
    Jock
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062
    mellowsun said:
    Ro_S said:
    ^ LOL.    You can still travel  and live/work abroad without EU membership and its freedom of movement.

    Sure, but after 2019 you'll likely need a visa if we leave the EEA/single market.
    to visit where?
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