Line 6 Modeling Pedals vs. Stompboxes... HELP!

KareemMonzer

Hey everyone!

I'm a little confused with the varied impressions regarding Line 6 pedals and equipment. There seems to be a lot of hate towards pedals like the MM4 Modulation, DL4 Delay and the Pod XT live. How do these compare against standard old-school stompboxes? I have to say that I find it strange that some stompboxes, which ideally produces a single effect could cost as much as a line 6 pedal that can produce tens of different effects. For example, the MM4 Modulation has everything from tremolo to phasers to univibes, while say an MXR Phase 90 has one predominant effect and costs relatively similar. This all gives me the impression that the effects on the Line 6 pedals are just not as good or high-quality as the effects found in individual stompboxes. Would I be right to think that? 

I know Kirk Hammett and John Mayer use the DL4 Delay, would that be worth anything? Also, is the POD XT Live as good as it sounds, in that is has loads of effects built into one massive pedal? or is that sacrificing on quality as well?

I'd really appreciate the help guys

Jonathanthomas83

I think the modelling pedals are great, it’s the build quality that leaves a lot to be desired. I loved my old DL4 and the MM4 was great too. Maybe try rackmount versions if you want better build quality or maybe the M5 or M9 but I don’t know how they compare build wise as I never used my M5 and sold it on after a few days. Sound wise, great though!

Roland

Oh Kareem, you’ve opened a can of worms. Some people prefer one, some the other. There are small differences in the sound, often very small. Some people don’t hear them. Some people use the pedals in a way that the difference isn’t audible. Some don’t mind about the difference. Some people (including me) like the benefits (configurability and workflow) of integrated FX systems. Some people aren’t comfortable with programming/configuring them.

english_bob

Personally, I'll take the drastically reduced pedalboard size and weight my M5-based rig over the enormous, heavy and expensive alternative. I use two M5s to cover all my modulation effects, reverbs, pitch shifting and a few other things. I can synchronise patch changes and tempo via MIDI and I have them both in order switching loop pedals so I can run them in front of the amp or in the effects loop depending on what works best for each effect.

I *could* achieve the same thing with separate stompboxes, but it would be far more complicated to fit on a board, to power and to troubleshoot, and chances are I'd have to forfeit the MIDI capacity I currently have. 

Would it sound better? Probably (assuming all the possible cabling and buffering gremlins were ironed out). But I'd be significantly out of pocket and I'd need a friend to help me lift my pedalboard.

IMO, complex equipment like the POD XT Live or the current Helix need a lot of work and study to understand and to get the most from  (just look at the enormous Helix thread here...), which is not something every player is prepared to accept. Not everyone *needs* everything that a Helix can do either, so plenty of guitarists don't understand what all the fuss is about. 

Build quality can be an issue with equipment, but that's equally true of boutique single effects (not all of which come anywhere near the hype about superior "handbuilt" construction), but IMO the biggest downside to stuff like Line 6 puts out is the problem of obsolescence. Analogue electronics aren't going to progress much in the next ten years (which is why 1970s designs like the Phase 90, Tubescreamer or various analogue delays are still popular choices for guitarists) but what's state of the art now in the digital realm will be little better than a paperweight in five years. 

TheBigDipper

I gigged an XT Live for a couple of years, 2007/8. It wasn't brilliant but made it easy to do covers. It was never pleasant to play through. I ran it into an Atomic 30w valve power amp combo.

Since then, Line 6 has been through several iterations of hardware. I've owned an M5 and liked the modulation sounds a lot.  I owned an AmpliFi for a short period and didn't like it much. I suspect I'd have liked an HD500 more. Loads of people love the sounds of a Helix, so they must be doing something right. 

Digital effects are dependent on the processor and the algorithms, plus the AD/DA converters and any analogue buffers, preamps, etc.  The reason they can be inexpensive compared to several analogue pedals is that the one piece of hardware can run different algorithms to make the different sounds without needing to be built into a different box. 

Winny_Pooh

Individual stompboxes tend to sound better for most things aside from reverb and delay. Individual pedals also tend to sound more unique vs multi's that cover all bases, plus the controls are dedicated and many players prefer that. 

EricTheWeary

Apart from very well heeled pros and very well heeled amateurs I think people tend to be quite pragmatic about it and go with what they find easiest to use as long as the sound in the final mix is good enough. Increasingly people use a mix of the two - often well loved analogue pedals for key sounds and digital for more utilitarian purposes. 

ICBM

Not long ago I did some testing with my Boss ME-50 (not exactly a state-of-the-art multi-FX) and my classic Boss analogue pedals - including an original CE-2 chorus, PH-1R phaser, DD-2 delay etc - using a Boss LS-2 Line Selector to A/B them on the fly, and making sure the levels were perfectly matched, which can affect perceived tone.

The result was rather shocking. On most of the effects there was really little to no detectable difference in the quality of the effect at all - the main difference was lower background noise on the ME-50, even without its noise suppressor turned on. Even more shocking was that the overdrive/distortion - where I expected the analogue pedals to win - the ME-50 was *better* sounding. (Admittedly not on all the settings, there are some that are less good as well.)

The only really significant wins for the individual pedals were where the analogue pedal was 'worse but in a good way' - the DM-2 delay (the model is much cleaner, but doesn't pitch-bend smoothly when you turn the knob, or self-oscillate) and the OC-2 octaver (the model is less glitchy, but in a more artificial way and doesn't sound as fat).

So I am now sure that my previous opinion that analogue pedals 'just sound better' is not entirely true, or even at all where it really matters.

jellybelly

ICBM said:

Not long ago I did some testing with my Boss ME-50 (not exactly a state-of-the-art multi-FX) and my classic Boss analogue pedals - including an original CE-2 chorus, PH-1R phaser, DD-2 delay etc - using a Boss LS-2 Line Selector to A/B them on the fly, and making sure the levels were perfectly matched, which can affect perceived tone.

The result was rather shocking. On most of the effects there was really little to no detectable difference in the quality of the effect at all - the main difference was lower background noise on the ME-50, even without its noise suppressor turned on. Even more shocking was that the overdrive/distortion - where I expected the analogue pedals to win - the ME-50 was *better* sounding. (Admittedly not on all the settings, there are some that are less good as well.)

The only really significant wins for the individual pedals were where the analogue pedal was 'worse but in a good way' - the DM-2 delay (the model is much cleaner, but doesn't pitch-bend smoothly when you turn the knob, or self-oscillate) and the OC-2 octaver (the model is less glitchy, but in a more artificial way and doesn't sound as fat).

So I am now sure that my previous opinion that analogue pedals 'just sound better' is not entirely true, or even at all where it really matters.

This is so very true - it's amazing what you find when you leave your prejudice at the door. I'm getting some great drive tones from my Zoom MS-50. It really shouldn't do overdrive that well, but it bloody does...

Cabicular

I used a line 6 M13 for years and used to get compliments all the time. For me it’s all about the power section. Pre-amps seem to cope better digitally 

gibsongretschfan

Cabicular said:

I used a line 6 M13 for years and used to get compliments all the time. For me it’s all about the power section. Pre-amps seem to cope better digitally 

Says the guy that goes FRFR

Teetonetal

Winny_Pooh said:

Individual stompboxes tend to sound better for most things aside from reverb and delay. Individual pedals also tend to sound more unique vs multi's that cover all bases, plus the controls are dedicated and many players prefer that

I feel the complete opposite. It' delay and reverb along with chorus where I feel I must have dedicated pedals. Mfx can easily cover the rest. Though till helix I've hated the interface on every mfx I've had... which meant I went the pedal route regardless.

RandallFlagg

@ICBM 's point about digital modelled overdrive/distortion clicks with me. I had a Helix and the widely hailed RYRA Klone pedal and A/B'd them through the same amp for a while, using Line 6's Minotaur model within the Helix (Klon clone), and I preferred the Line 6 Minotaur. The feel, dynamic response and tone were very good on the drives which was a bit of an eye opener for me. Plus, as already mentioned, the noise floor on the digital gear is much lower.

I now use a Strymon Sunset for drive and a Strymon El Capitan for delay, both are digital but a small but important difference for me is that they have an analogue dry through path which really helps preserve the core sound when not using the effect.

The Helix, and I assume the rest of Line 6's gear, converts the signal to digital at point of entry into the device and I could hear a difference in the core tone when no effects or amp models were in use of the Helix, albeit very small. It was enough to bug me, but to be fair, if you use a boost/drive all the time with a Helix you would never know.

impmann

I don't think the 4x4 range ever got any 'hate' - far from it, as you say the DL4 was beloved by many folks and there was a time where 90% of pro pedal boards featured one. The DM4 (distortion) modeler is fab - I remember the hoo-hah about Edge's sound on Vertigo on certain forums when it came out... the simple answer is it was a guitar (can't remember which), a DM4 and an AC30 for those huge power chords. The MM4 was great too, as was the FM4. What let them down was the weight, the power supply needs and a reputation for switch failure - justified to a point, but despite the noise on forums not "everybody" had problems. Some folks banjax clunky "true bypass" (ho ho) switches into them, but realistically thats like replacing a chocolate fireguard with one made of cheese.

The XT Live is *brilliant* - and if you've ever seen Elbow live or listened to one of their most famous songs, you've heard one. Pete (bass) still feeds all his bass sounds through one every night. Craig (guitar) recorded all of the Seldom Seen Kid album using one (into a Fender Twin) - he was using one for certain things but I think its recently been retired - and Guy used to use one into the front end of his AC30-based rig. Although the switches feel more fragile we rarely had them in for that - and yet they use exactly the same switches on the board as the 4x4s, the X3 Live, etc etc. Yes, they do use a menu based operating system but its not rocket science and there are some excellent sounds in them.

For me, the M5/M9/M13 were the best pedals Line6 ever made - but then I would say that, being a beta tester. Bonehead simple to use, yet incredibly powerful and with great sounds. If ever I'm going to a rehearsal, gig or jam where I believe space could be an issue and yet I don't know what I'm going to be playing (or need to cover a huge sonic territory), I'll take my M13 - its one of the very first production units (taken from the first batch and airshipped to the UK direct from the far east), has done hundreds of gigs and trade shows and was even used by one magazine as the test unit for a feature. Its still 100% perfect and I'll be taking it to the Northampton Jam in December.

Frankly, rather than ask a bunch of folks on a forum I'd suggest that the best idea would be to try one for yourself and if it sounds good *to you* then all the 'hate' in the world and all the forum 'wisdom' about the unit becomes utterly meaningless.

english_bob

impmann said:

I don't think the 4x4 range ever got any 'hate' - far from it, as you say the DL4 was beloved by many folks and there was a time where 90% of pro pedal boards featured one. 

  Exactly. For a long time the DL4 was the only gig in town if you wanted a delay with presets that wasn't rackmounted, or part of a full-on multi-effect processor. It wasn't perfect (volume drops in some modes, inexplicable lack of dotted eighth subdivisions, ropey switches, an expression pedal function that wasn't really an expression pedal function, and a tendency to brick itself if it didn't like something about your power supply which was only curable by removing eight tiny black screws from the backplate and prising a little black chip out of its springloaded housing- what could possibly go wrong if you had to do that at a gig?) but it was such a fantastic thing to have that many of us put up with it.

It had presets! It could be cheated in to giving you more presets if you used an expression pedal! It made spaceship noises! It had a really awesome looper! It sounded pretty good (except when it didn't) and there was nothing else to touch it. 

Until there was. The DL4 was by far the most successful of the 4x4 series, and within a few years there were serious rivals to it from all the big players - Boss, TC Electronic, Eventide, Digitech (the Timebender had intelligently harmonized delay repeats. how did that not catch on?), Yamaha (remember the UD Stomp?)- then from the boutique crowd a few years after that- Strymon, Empress and all the rest. The poor old DL4 just got left behind, but then so have most of its contemporary rivals.

impmann said:

For me, the M5/M9/M13 were the best pedals Line6 ever made

I arrived very late to the party with the M5, but I think it's brilliant. For integrating a lot of functionality in to a larger pedalboard without taking up too much space it's great- I got one first because I wanted a reverb with presets, but I also wanted a pitch shifter with presets, and the options for both were very thin on the ground, particularly if I didn't want to spend a lot of money.

I've ended up with two because I can easily keep both busy most of the time- volume pedal duties, various modulations, wah, reverb, pitch effects etc, plus a lot of really oddball stuff from the FM4. They're MIDI compatible, so in time I'll likely incorporate them in to a switching system of some sort, and they're already synced to the MIDI clock on my DD-500. The fact that they're old and fairly unfashionable means they're cheap too. I'm kind of dreading some sort of "Pocket Helix" product from Line 6 that will take over from the M-series because it'll almost certainly be enough of an improvement on my M5s that I'll want one. Or two.

Cabicular

gibsongretschfan said:

Cabicular said:

I used a line 6 M13 for years and used to get compliments all the time. For me it’s all about the power section. Pre-amps seem to cope better digitally 

Says the guy that goes FRFR

They have nailed it in modelling now
used to be an issue (lack of dynamics, lack of punch for want of a better word)
cant really tell the difference with the Helix live
My problem always was that I play softly and quietly when the singing is happening and dig in when I need to be heard. The Helix is the first modeller I’ve played that actually changes volume when you do that