Bridge pins - any thoughts?

Nitefly

I'm thinking of replacing the bridge pins on my Martin 00-15, which currently has (I presume) the standard Martin white plastic ones with black dot.  The question is, what with?

I have a set of the Planet Waves boxwood ones on my Seagull, which look nice and (to my ears) sound a little warmer than plastic (although that could well be down to the guitar opening up, as it's 20 years old).

Are those brass ones any good?  They're certainly not cheap!

Also, there is a nagging thought at the back of my mind that Martin ones are a different size to "standard" ones - is that true, or did I dream it?

Interested in any observations, cheers.

ICBM

They don't affect the sound in my opinion. I once spent an hour or so swapping between plastic, bone and brass on my Gibson - not all at once, in combinations of 1, 2 and 3 so I could hear if there was any difference between strings when compared directly to each other. There was none.

I kept the bone ones with the abalone dots because they look really nice.

The sizes do vary a little - it's usually not a problem, apart from with old Eko ones which are substantially bigger so modern pins don't fit the holes properly.

stickyfiddle

I can believe different weight pins might make a difference, but it'll be a loooong way down the pecking order, beneath wood (top, back/sides, neck, fretboard), tuner weight, string gauge, tuning, pick attack, age of strings etc. i.e. not worth worrying about.

I like the ones that came on my Martin because they look nice.

Lewy

Personally I’d steer clear of brass as I don’t think adding mass to the bridge is a good idea.

Sound aside, I’m not a fan of plastic pins because over time they can deform and long term that can lead to the ball end damaging the bridge plate. I prefer ebony. 

ICBM

Lewy said:

Sound aside, I’m not a fan of plastic pins because over time they can deform and long term that can lead to the ball end damaging the bridge plate.

That's true, although it's fairly rare.

I always pre-kink the ball end slightly before I put it in, both to help avoid that and because it makes it easier to get the ball to properly push round the corner and not get hung up on the tip of the pin.

Funkfingers

I like this solution to the matter.

http://www.falboguitars.com/video

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

I like this solution to the matter.

http://www.falboguitars.com/video

Interesting.

The only problem is that I didn't like it from the first few seconds of the sound clip.

I don't like through-the-back bridges either…

For all their faults, pin bridges just sound right.

tone1

I had brass ones on a Handbuilt Acoustic but it didn’t sound any different... but made me feel better than having shitty plastic ones fitted.

I do like ebony bridge pins though 

maltingsaudio

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

I like this solution to the matter.

http://www.falboguitars.com/video

Interesting.

The only problem is that I didn't like it from the first few seconds of the sound clip.

I don't like through-the-back bridges either…

For all their faults, pin bridges just sound right.

Didn’t get how the strings were anchored on this, understood what he was on about and kind of made sense, though how much real difference it makes to the tone is questionable. It should however increase the life of the guitar marginally

wrinkleygit

replaced the plastic ones on my martin with bone pins with abalone inlays, they were fractionaly smaller than the origionals but have been in the guitar now for several years & string changes with no problems, couldn't tell any difference in sound but they look great

Nitefly

Interesting replies - thanks very much, food for thought!

I think I'll steer clear of the brass ones, then, and probably go for bone or ebony.

Lewy

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

I like this solution to the matter.

http://www.falboguitars.com/video

Interesting.

The only problem is that I didn't like it from the first few seconds of the sound clip.

I don't like through-the-back bridges either…

For all their faults, pin bridges just sound right.

Exactly this.

I fired up the video demo of the dreadnought and didn't like it at all. If one likes the sound of the "holy grail" acoustics - pre-war 'bones, banner J45s etc etc - then it would appear one likes the sound of rotational torque and soundboard deflection, and all sorts of "flawed" engineering. Fine by me! Those classic designs work off torque - if you reduce the torque on the top of a classic X braced Martin or Gibson design (by say lowering the string height significantly) they lose tone and projection. The torque isn't a flaw - it's an operating principle.

Of course, if you like the sound that he's created with this approach then that's one thing - he's got an innovative design, it has a sound. If anyone likes it and buys his guitars, it's all to be applauded. But he's not solving anything that was actually a problem with this design.

SpiritOfTheAge

I used to gig regularly with an acoustic guitar (Mariachi style band) and after a couple of the plastic bridge pins giving up the ghost (the snapped off) I laid out on a set of brass ones, I never had an issue with bridge pins ever again.

ICBM

SpiritOfTheAge said:

I used to gig regularly with an acoustic guitar (Mariachi style band) and after a couple of the plastic bridge pins giving up the ghost (the snapped off) I laid out on a set of brass ones, I never had an issue with bridge pins ever again.

If the head (I assume that's what you meant to say!) snapped off, you were pushing them in too tight, and getting them out the wrong way.

Contrary to popular belief, the pin does *not* have to be tight in the hole - it's not that which stops the ball end coming out. What's meant to happen is that the tip of the pin goes *past* the ball end and simply stops it moving back into the hole. The pin can be quite a loose fit and that will still work perfectly.

If one is actually stuck, don't try to force it out by using pliers or even one of those 'peg puller' tools - that is likely to chew the bridge up even if it doesn't break the pin. What to do is simply slacken the strings and push the pin out from the inside, using a pick or a coin to protect your fingertip if it won't come easily.

OK, brass pins do make breakage impossible as well, but they aren't necessary to fix that problem.

AliGorie

If I had concerns that the makers(s) of a guitar I was considering buying would compromise the (sound) quality of what they were offering for a few $ difference I’d walk on by.
In saying that my Bourgeois has Ivoroid (sp?) plastic b/pins, nice ’n light so don’t interfere with - well anything - sound wise. Never had an issue with them structurally.
I know he will put fossil ivory on his top end models, purely aesthetic, the weight difference would amount to a couple of string gauges.
Theres a thought - no one EVER considers - string wright on the bridge system.
Can I suggest to those who see issues with pins - go pinless.

sev112

I have PowerPins on my early 80s cheapish Fender dreadnought.  Noticeable difference from common bridge pins, brighter and more sustain.  
Great for fingerpicking or flat picking, but strumming isn’t so significantly different, but there is something there too

I would even suggest louder, but the physics doesn’t sound right to me for that to be the case.

ICBM

sev112 said:

I have PowerPins on my early 80s cheapish Fender dreadnought.  Noticeable difference from common bridge pins, brighter and more sustain.

I agree with that, although I didn't like them personally.

The reason they sound different is that the method of anchoring the string is completely different, and the break angle over the saddle is reduced.

I didn't like those brass ones where the string goes through a hole in the pin so the ball end is on the wrong side, either - I can't remember what they were called…

Lewy

AliGorie said:

In saying that my Bourgeois has Ivoroid (sp?) plastic b/pins, nice ’n light so don’t interfere with - well anything - sound wise. Never had an issue with them structurally.

I imagine they’re solid pins and a slotted bridge though, right? As opposed to slotted pins. You’re not going to have structural issues when things are done that way (I dare say “properly”) regardless of pin material.