Why is "Free movement" a core principle of the EU?

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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7517
    I thjnk the main reasons for baulking at "Free Movement" include
    • "they" are insisting on it
    • "they" are not "us"
    • "they" must have reasons for it which benefit "them" more than "us"

    Who are "They"?

    If you mean Europeans, I'm one too and yes, it benefitted me. 

    The "They" I'm worried about are the billionaires on both sides who have their own agendas, and are pushing the rest of us dumb pawns around in a bid to feather their own nests by convincing us to shit in our own. 

    I'm not naive enough to think this is a new phenomenon, but there is a new cynicism at work, a knowledge that you can fool a sliver of a majority most of the time without even pretending to give a shit about the rest. 

    There's now a huge minority in the western world who feel totally disenfranchised, who after three decades of divisions and borders falling away in a shrinking, more inclusive world, have seen a depressing popular uprising in favour of putting up barriers and spreading hostility and suspicion. 

    Maybe I'm turning into an old hippie, but it's taking some of us a little time to adjust to the people we find ourselves living amongst, that's all. 
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  • well, yes, I did mean "Europeans", but I meant them across the other side of the "North Sea". "us" means the English/Welsh/Scots - what some might call "British"
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  • "us" means the English/Welsh/Scots - what some might call "British"
    Poor old Northern Ireland. Forgotten again.
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  • "us" means the English/Welsh/Scots - what some might call "British"
    Poor old Northern Ireland. Forgotten again.
    They are a most unfortunate people. Sent there a few hundred years ago in a silly attempt to out-breed the Catholics, in a place that Westminster cannot govern (despite the wishes of Unionists), nay, should not govern because it's someone else's country.
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    Fretwired said:

    There's a dangerous Polish burglar on the loose in London. He's been prosecuted countless times and deported. He just sneaks back into the UK.
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    p90fool said:
    Why do people hate the idea of free movement? 
    'Because the economic inequity between the various EU states means that a certain few of the EU states have to accommodate the huge bulk of internal EU migration.

    Uncontrolled EU migration is causing public services in the UK to be at breaking point.  

    The majority of migrants do not make a sufficient positive net financial contribution to the UK, due to tax tiers and in-work benefits.   

    Who can blame someone to seek a better live for themselves and their families elsewhere.
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  • I thjnk the main reasons for baulking at "Free Movement" include
    • "they" are insisting on it
    • "they" are not "us"
    • "they" must have reasons for it which benefit "them" more than "us"
    Or.. "they" have travelled a bit and realise it's actually not that scary and "other people" aren't something to be feared?
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7517
    We have uncontrolled migration between London and Truro, Cardiff and Edinburgh, Norwich and Manchester. 

    Different areas with different economic prospects and their own pressures on infrastructure.  

    There would be outrage throughout the land if we banned free movement between these places, but as soon as it's Johnny Foreigner it's suddenly a problem. 

    But it's not racism, no siree, some of my best friends etc. 

    Yeah right. 
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    p90fool said:
    We have uncontrolled migration between London and Truro, Cardiff and Edinburgh, Norwich and Manchester. 
    Different areas with different economic prospects and their own pressures on infrastructure.  
    There would be outrage throughout the land if we banned free movement between these places, but as soon as it's Johnny Foreigner it's suddenly a problem.
    All of Britain has the same legal minimum wage.  Does, say, Poland have such a minimum wage and how much is it?

    How does the lowest cost of living of anywhere in Britain compare to the highest cost of living in Poland? 
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  • Or.. "they" have travelled a bit and realise it's actually not that scary and "other people" aren't something to be feared?
    Whether or not you "fear" other people per se is not relevant. the question is do you want them running your country from the outside?
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7517
    Or.. "they" have travelled a bit and realise it's actually not that scary and "other people" aren't something to be feared?
    Whether or not you "fear" other people per se is not relevant. the question is do you want them running your country from the outside?
    Well obviously nobody born outside this country could be an administrator of the quality of May, Gove, Davies or Johnson, thank God for us Brits, eh? 
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  • Ro_S said:
    p90fool said:
    Why do people hate the idea of free movement? 
    'Because the economic inequity between the various EU states means that a certain few of the EU states have to accommodate the huge bulk of internal EU migration.

    Uncontrolled EU migration is causing public services in the UK to be at breaking point.  

    The majority of migrants do not make a sufficient positive net financial contribution to the UK, due to tax tiers and in-work benefits.   

    Who can blame someone to seek a better live for themselves and their families elsewhere.
    What in-work benefits are these then? 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • p90fool said:
    Or.. "they" have travelled a bit and realise it's actually not that scary and "other people" aren't something to be feared?
    Whether or not you "fear" other people per se is not relevant. the question is do you want them running your country from the outside?
    Well obviously nobody born outside this country could be an administrator of the quality of May, Gove, Davies or Johnson, thank God for us Brits, eh? 
    I refer you to the statement I made earlier about "I'd rather have our fools than theirs" :)
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7517
    Lol, fair comment
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  • It was actually in the brexit costs loads thread:


    What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

    IMO they are not economic. So you can buy the bribe and stay in. As Far As I  Am Concerned it's not about economics. It's about who runs the country and I'd rather have our fools than theirs because at least i can vote them out. Not that it makes a lot of difference but the idea that I can vote them out makes me feel better.
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    Ro_S said:
    p90fool said:
    Why do people hate the idea of free movement? 
    'Because the economic inequity between the various EU states means that a certain few of the EU states have to accommodate the huge bulk of internal EU migration.

    Uncontrolled EU migration is causing public services in the UK to be at breaking point.  

    The majority of migrants do not make a sufficient positive net financial contribution to the UK, due to tax tiers and in-work benefits.   

    Who can blame someone to seek a better live for themselves and their families elsewhere.
    What in-work benefits are these then? 
    e.g.
    working tax credits
    housing benefit
    child benefit
    child tax credits
    maternity pay

    healthcare (given that free universal state healthcare is not standard across EU)

    (certain qualifying criteria did change the other year, though, affecting new EU immigrants)


    p.s. some stats....

    A 2016 study by Oxford University shows that a higher proportion of EU immigrants in the UK receive in-work benefits than UK's UK-born population.

    Official figures for 2013-14 tax year show that nearly 9% of the UK's total working tax credit expenditure went to households with an EU migrant, and that 16% of the UK's total housing benefit to those in work went to households led by an EU migrant.

    About half of EU working-age migrants in the UK are very low paid.
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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 894
    It was actually in the brexit costs loads thread:


    What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

    IMO they are not economic. So you can buy the bribe and stay in. As Far As I  Am Concerned it's not about economics. It's about who runs the country and I'd rather have our fools than theirs because at least i can vote them out. Not that it makes a lot of difference but the idea that I can vote them out makes me feel better.
    Accept you can't vote anybody out. We all vote for someone to represent the constituency we live in, not against any particular government. If it worked that way, most of the governments wouldn't have been formed as the majority of the electorate don't want them - 58% of the voting electorate didn't vote for the current government.
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  • Octafish said:
    It was actually in the brexit costs loads thread:


    What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

    IMO they are not economic. So you can buy the bribe and stay in. As Far As I  Am Concerned it's not about economics. It's about who runs the country and I'd rather have our fools than theirs because at least i can vote them out. Not that it makes a lot of difference but the idea that I can vote them out makes me feel better.
    Accept you can't vote anybody out. We all vote for someone to represent the constituency we live in, not against any particular government. If it worked that way, most of the governments wouldn't have been formed as the majority of the electorate don't want them - 58% of the voting electorate didn't vote for the current government.
    In which case, why vote or take part in political discussion?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    Octafish said:

    Accept you can't vote anybody out. We all vote for someone to represent the constituency we live in, not against any particular government. If it worked that way, most of the governments wouldn't have been formed as the majority of the electorate don't want them - 58% of the voting electorate didn't vote for the current government.
    Exactly - we have rule by the largest minority in this country, not rule by the majority. In fact, the only government since WWII which did have a true majority of the vote was the 2010-2015 coalition... for all the good that did!

    Phil_aka_Pip said:

    In which case, why vote or take part in political discussion?
    Because trying to make a difference is better than not trying to make a difference.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ICBM said:
    Because trying to make a difference is better than not trying to make a difference.
    That seems a sure way to frustration. Believing that making a difference is possible must be the only reason for trying to make a difference.

    I work with a chap from Lithuania. I asked him if Putin's antics worry him about what's happening back home (tbh I'd be worried) - but he said "We've had Russian rule before, we may have it again, we can't do anything about it so stop worrying and get on with life". I'm under the impression he thinks we can all just get on with life despite government.

    I think that I wouldn't care about the EU or any other facet of our politics if that was my attitude.
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    Octafish said:

    Accept you can't vote anybody out. We all vote for someone to represent the constituency we live in, not against any particular government. If it worked that way, most of the governments wouldn't have been formed as the majority of the electorate don't want them - 58% of the voting electorate didn't vote for the current government.
    I would suggest that in excess of 99.00% of votes in a general election go to candidates purely because of the political party they represent.   That is how, in turn, governments get formed.  If you don't want party 'X' to get into power, then don't vote for the party 'X' candidate in your constituency or vote for another party's candidate.   
    The biggest problem with the electoral system is the mass of safe seats.  
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10418
    edited December 2017
    Ro_S said:
    What in-work benefits are these then? 
    e.g.
    working tax credits
    housing benefit
    child benefit
    child tax credits
    maternity pay

    healthcare (given that free universal state healthcare is not standard across EU)

    (certain qualifying criteria did change the other year, though, affecting new EU immigrants)


    p.s. some stats....

    A 2016 study by Oxford University shows that a higher proportion of EU immigrants in the UK receive in-work benefits than UK's UK-born population.

    Official figures for 2013-14 tax year show that nearly 9% of the UK's total working tax credit expenditure went to households with an EU migrant, and that 16% of the UK's total housing benefit to those in work went to households led by an EU migrant.

    About half of EU working-age migrants in the UK are very low paid.

    Is there any word on the respective percentages of EU migrants in work versus UK-born population? Because if 99% of migrants are working versus 50% of the UK born population, then of course those EU chaps will proportionally be receiving more benefits. 

    It's the low pay that is the issue. Let's say we ditch migrants and close the doors. All those EU workers are replaced by UK born people. They're still earning a low wage, still qualifying for tax credits. Yes, it would lighten the load on the public sector but that still wouldn't be confronting the issue of the rise of poorly paid jobs, gig economy, dubious self employed status for couriers etc. 

    Not sure which study but I suspect it's this one the Express references.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/655145/Brexit-EU-referendum-European-migrants-benefits-tax-credits-British-workers


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  • It's the low pay that is the issue. Let's say we ditch migrants and close the doors. All those EU workers are replaced by UK born people. They're still earning a low wage, still qualifying for tax credits. Yes, it would lighten the load on the public sector but that still wouldn't be confronting the issue of the rise of poorly paid jobs, gig economy, dubious self employed status for couriers etc. 
    Agreed. Low pay, gig economy is IMO a Big Issue per se. "Free Movement" *might* exacerbate it but it's a problem that needs to vbe fixed irrespective of any EU consiterations.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    ICBM said:
    Because trying to make a difference is better than not trying to make a difference.
    That seems a sure way to frustration. Believing that making a difference is possible must be the only reason for trying to make a difference.
    Making a difference is possible, just difficult - more difficult than it would be if we had a decent electoral system.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    Ro_S said:

    A 2016 study by Oxford University shows that a higher proportion of EU immigrants in the UK receive in-work benefits than UK's UK-born population.

    Is there any word on the respective percentages of EU migrants in work versus UK-born population? Because if 99% of migrants are working versus 50% of the UK born population, then of course those EU chaps will proportionally be receiving more benefits. 
    To be clear, the percentage of EU migrants in the UK who are in work and receive in-work benefits is a higher percentage than the percentage of the UK's UK-born population who are in work and receive in-work benefits. 
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  • It's the low pay that is the issue. Let's say we ditch migrants and close the doors. All those EU workers are replaced by UK born people. They're still earning a low wage, still qualifying for tax credits. Yes, it would lighten the load on the public sector but that still wouldn't be confronting the issue of the rise of poorly paid jobs, gig economy, dubious self employed status for couriers etc. 
    Agreed. Low pay, gig economy is IMO a Big Issue per se. "Free Movement" *might* exacerbate it but it's a problem that needs to vbe fixed irrespective of any EU consiterations.
    Personally I think the idea of freedom of movement wasn't too terrible in the past. If you look at the economy back in 2004, the online world hadn't really kicked in. The explosion of easy access through smartphones especially changed everything. Freedom of movement then exacerbated the problems.

    It is remarkable to think that the minimum wage came in 18 years ago at £3.60 an hour. Ye gads...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/1/newsid_2465000/2465397.stm

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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    ^ 2004 is when 8 eastern european countries joined the EU.



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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
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  • as I recall, EU migrants are estimated.
    e.g. the BBC said civilian staff try to interview every 10th person on an incoming ferry, ask them where they are from, and if they are staying for a holiday, and for how long. It's informal, they can decline to answer, and can give any reply.
    They only count as migrants if it's for work, more than 6m I think.

    Therefore all the figures you see about EU migrants are estimates based on those asked telling the truth, and knowing their long term future - they might not even know they will be here longer.

    Non-EU numbers must also be estimated, but I think the scope for inaccuracy is greater with people coming from the EU, since there is no legal right to ask on entry

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  • @Ro_S Which is why I selected 2004 as my point of reference. More migrants kicked in at around the same time as the technological explosion, thus leading to a huge new pool of people prepared to work for low wages in this country. So it would be correct to say that a migrant boost put a strain on services post-recession as austerity kicked in but the real underlying problem is the creation of a low wage economy as benefits were cut back. Hurrah, we have more employment... but they're paid peanuts. 

    The data table above, as provided by the reliably non-biased Facts4Eu and Patrick Minford (cough), is focused on unskilled EU migrants (no details on the percentage of migrants that are unskilled) and presents a possibility rather than actual situations. It also clashes against other complaints about migrants claiming child benefit to send to their kids back home. If so, then those kids aren't in the country requiring NHS and educational services either. 

    So it depends on the lobby group you like. There's no clear defining opinion. EFT for you, others elsewhere. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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