Why is "Free movement" a core principle of the EU?

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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1262
    @Ro_S Which is why I selected 2004 as my point of reference. More migrants kicked in at around the same time as the technological explosion, thus leading to a huge new pool of people prepared to work for low wages in this country. So it would be correct to say that a migrant boost put a strain on services post-recession as austerity kicked in but the real underlying problem is the creation of a low wage economy as benefits were cut back. Hurrah, we have more employment... but they're paid peanuts. 


    It's not so much 'prepared to work for low wages' but affording to. You're not going to compete with 9 polish labourers sharing a 3 bed terrace house working  long days, 7 days a week for 12 months. Their costs to live here in an almost communal state is vastly lower than Bob Smith & his wife and two kids next door. I became good friends with a Pole who did exactly this in 2006/7 then when he met (and married) an English girl he tried to live more conventionally and was quite shocked at the expense of living day to day. He is still here with two children, lovely chap but I'll scream if I hear "this one time, in Poland, we were drinking...." ever again. His nickname was Bandcamp.
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    @Ro_S Which is why I selected 2004 as my point of reference. More migrants kicked in at around the same time as the technological explosion, thus leading to a huge new pool of people prepared to work for low wages in this country. So it would be correct to say that a migrant boost put a strain on services post-recession as austerity kicked in but the real underlying problem is the creation of a low wage economy as benefits were cut back. Hurrah, we have more employment... but they're paid peanuts. 

    EU migrants from eastern Europe came into UK in large numbers after 2004 cos:
     (i) the UK govt allowed them to do so without any restrictions (which the UK govt could've implemented but chose not to),
     and
    (ii) the lower paid jobs in UK they are doing in the UK are NOT low paid compared to what they were previously earning - often for doing a better skilled job - in their country of origin.

    We don't need to create better jobs for people that aren't already here.


    The data table above, as provided by the reliably non-biased Facts4Eu and Patrick Minford (cough), is focused on unskilled EU migrants (no details on the percentage of migrants that are unskilled) and presents a possibility rather than actual situations. It also clashes against other complaints about migrants claiming child benefit to send to their kids back home. If so, then those kids aren't in the country requiring NHS and educational services either. 

    So it depends on the lobby group you like. There's no clear defining opinion. EFT for you, others elsewhere. 
    That data I posted is an example reflecting a real situation: an EU migrant couple in the UK earning the minimum wage with two kids.    You're arguing that situation, and one likes it, doesn't exist?

    I don't care were I got the data from; I just wanted accurate data - to illustrate and demonstrate a point a made earlier.   I'd never been to Facts4Eu website before. 

    p.s. The way you consistently portray me as some kind of Daily Mail reading right winger is so wrong.   I just don't like being in a EU superstate, or having uncontrolled immigration (wherever someone is from or whatever race they are).   I would suggest that a vast majority of people in the UK feel the same way - regardless of how they voted on Brexit.  The insinuations that one is a zenophobe or racist for thinking that way needs to stop.   Perhaps if we'd been able to have a mature and open debate on these issues ten plus years ago, we wouldn't be in the situation now of leaving the EU.  Instead the liberal fascists are still playing the PC card. 

    http://facts4eu.org/main_images/eu_migrants_costs_1.jpg
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  • seany65seany65 Frets: 218
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. That's why they also want a single Army.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 8268
    edited December 2017
    Ro_S said:
    That chart is wonderful. Some thoughts:

    "FACTS4EU.ORG" is genuinely hilarious. Kinda shouty-looking

    Does this mythical "couple with 2 kids" exist? I thought the complaint was that it was guys coming over on their own sending all taking our jobs but also on jobseekers because they were unemployed, then sending all their money back to their families in Poland/Romania/wherever-else-sounds-scary-and-foreign-this-week?

    I also have an issue with "Share of NHS" and "Share of Education" - would this money not be being spent *anyway*, even if they weren't in the country? Last time I checked the NHS budget didn't click up and down by 2.5k p.a. every time someone scanned their passport in or out at LHR. And what if they don't use any NHS services?

    And what about the economic benefits? The fact that this person is doing a job, adding value to the economy, and presumably spending that money on, you know, food and clothes and other shit. I know it fits the world-view to ignore that but it's extremely important.

    Please give me more charts from websites with funny URLs. I like charts. 
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 6574
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
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  • Garthy said:
    @Ro_S Which is why I selected 2004 as my point of reference. More migrants kicked in at around the same time as the technological explosion, thus leading to a huge new pool of people prepared to work for low wages in this country. So it would be correct to say that a migrant boost put a strain on services post-recession as austerity kicked in but the real underlying problem is the creation of a low wage economy as benefits were cut back. Hurrah, we have more employment... but they're paid peanuts. 


    It's not so much 'prepared to work for low wages' but affording to. You're not going to compete with 9 polish labourers sharing a 3 bed terrace house working  long days, 7 days a week for 12 months. Their costs to live here in an almost communal state is vastly lower than Bob Smith & his wife and two kids next door. I became good friends with a Pole who did exactly this in 2006/7 then when he met (and married) an English girl he tried to live more conventionally and was quite shocked at the expense of living day to day. He is still here with two children, lovely chap but I'll scream if I hear "this one time, in Poland, we were drinking...." ever again. His nickname was Bandcamp.
    Within that sector, you aren't. But how much of the migrant working market were representative of that? Over the last decade, I've been in the restaurant sector and worked with a lot of migrants (the boom working group being the Spanish after their economy tanked). The stereotype of 9 blokes in three bedrooms was rare but I would happily accept that Bristol and Bath aren't perhaps the places where multiple occupancy of a single room will be prevalent. Certainly now I'm here in London, I would agree that it'll be more common here, not least due to the massive amount of construction around this place. 
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  • Ro_S said:
    @Ro_S Which is why I selected 2004 as my point of reference. More migrants kicked in at around the same time as the technological explosion, thus leading to a huge new pool of people prepared to work for low wages in this country. So it would be correct to say that a migrant boost put a strain on services post-recession as austerity kicked in but the real underlying problem is the creation of a low wage economy as benefits were cut back. Hurrah, we have more employment... but they're paid peanuts. 

    EU migrants from eastern Europe came into UK in large numbers after 2004 cos:
     (i) the UK govt allowed them to do so without any restrictions (which the UK govt could've implemented but chose not to),
     and
    (ii) the lower paid jobs in UK they are doing in the UK are NOT low paid compared to what they were previously earning - often for doing a better skilled job - in their country of origin.

    We don't need to create better jobs for people that aren't already here.


    The data table above, as provided by the reliably non-biased Facts4Eu and Patrick Minford (cough), is focused on unskilled EU migrants (no details on the percentage of migrants that are unskilled) and presents a possibility rather than actual situations. It also clashes against other complaints about migrants claiming child benefit to send to their kids back home. If so, then those kids aren't in the country requiring NHS and educational services either. 

    So it depends on the lobby group you like. There's no clear defining opinion. EFT for you, others elsewhere. 
    That data I posted is an example reflecting a real situation: an EU migrant couple in the UK earning the minimum wage with two kids.    You're arguing that situation, and one likes it, doesn't exist?

    I don't care were I got the data from; I just wanted accurate data - to illustrate and demonstrate a point a made earlier.   I'd never been to Facts4Eu website before. 

    p.s. The way you consistently portray me as some kind of Daily Mail reading right winger is so wrong.   I just don't like being in a EU superstate, or having uncontrolled immigration (wherever someone is from or whatever race they are).   I would suggest that a vast majority of people in the UK feel the same way - regardless of how they voted on Brexit.  The insinuations that one is a zenophobe or racist for thinking that way needs to stop.   Perhaps if we'd been able to have a mature and open debate on these issues ten plus years ago, we wouldn't be in the situation now of leaving the EU.  Instead the liberal fascists are still playing the PC card. 

    Mr dear chap, allow me to address your points. 

    1. I'm quite aware of the fact that lower paid UK jobs are still paid better than low paid jobs in Krakow. That totally flies over the point I was making. We do need better paid jobs over here full stop for the people already here. Putting the focus on migrants skirts over that issue. Get rid of all the Poles, Bulgarians, Venusians etc and you're still left with a lot of shit jobs on low pay with a lot of insecurity. 

    2. I'm not actually sure what that quote in bold actually means. So let's say that nothing exists and we are all mere illusions of potential within a galaxy of possibilities. 

    3. Regarding your postscript piece: I've never called you a racist or a zenophobe (sic) and nor have I made claims about you reading the Mail. Instead I've reflected on what you've written here in this forum and let that speak for itself. As seen in other threads, some started by yourself, you complain about being the victim. That you complain about someone trying to stereotype you in a certain way whilst using the phrase 'liberal fascists' simply toasts the coals of my warm Yuletide heart. 

    4. Uncontrolled immigration is a problem and I've long espoused a controlled system. Many of the points you raise over an EU superstate and immigration are valid and ones that made me seriously consider voting Leave. In the end I did not vote that way because I was concerned that it would embolden a new strain of patriotic idiot bluster alongside the usual swivel-eyed political loons (the calls for Farage to be knighted for instance). Going by today's Mail headline, I was right not to do so. The EU has infrastructural problems that go right to the core and is in need of serious reform but frankly I'd still favour that over the sort of mindless bullshit we saw directed toward British judges over the Article 50 case. 


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  • p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    Ro_S said:
    @Ro_S Which is why I selected 2004 as my point of reference. More migrants kicked in at around the same time as the technological explosion, thus leading to a huge new pool of people prepared to work for low wages in this country. So it would be correct to say that a migrant boost put a strain on services post-recession as austerity kicked in but the real underlying problem is the creation of a low wage economy as benefits were cut back. Hurrah, we have more employment... but they're paid peanuts. 

    EU migrants from eastern Europe came into UK in large numbers after 2004 cos:
     (i) the UK govt allowed them to do so without any restrictions (which the UK govt could've implemented but chose not to),
     and
    (ii) the lower paid jobs in UK they are doing in the UK are NOT low paid compared to what they were previously earning - often for doing a better skilled job - in their country of origin.

    We don't need to create better jobs for people that aren't already here.


    The data table above, as provided by the reliably non-biased Facts4Eu and Patrick Minford (cough), is focused on unskilled EU migrants (no details on the percentage of migrants that are unskilled) and presents a possibility rather than actual situations. It also clashes against other complaints about migrants claiming child benefit to send to their kids back home. If so, then those kids aren't in the country requiring NHS and educational services either. 

    So it depends on the lobby group you like. There's no clear defining opinion. EFT for you, others elsewhere. 
    That data I posted is an example reflecting a real situation: an EU migrant couple in the UK earning the minimum wage with two kids.    You're arguing that situation, and one likes it, doesn't exist?

    I don't care were I got the data from; I just wanted accurate data - to illustrate and demonstrate a point a made earlier.   I'd never been to Facts4Eu website before. 

    p.s. The way you consistently portray me as some kind of Daily Mail reading right winger is so wrong.   I just don't like being in a EU superstate, or having uncontrolled immigration (wherever someone is from or whatever race they are).   I would suggest that a vast majority of people in the UK feel the same way - regardless of how they voted on Brexit.  The insinuations that one is a zenophobe or racist for thinking that way needs to stop.   Perhaps if we'd been able to have a mature and open debate on these issues ten plus years ago, we wouldn't be in the situation now of leaving the EU.  Instead the liberal fascists are still playing the PC card. 

    Mr dear chap, allow me to address your points. 

    1. I'm quite aware of the fact that lower paid UK jobs are still paid better than low paid jobs in Krakow. That totally flies over the point I was making. We do need better paid jobs over here full stop for the people already here. Putting the focus on migrants skirts over that issue. Get rid of all the Poles, Bulgarians, Venusians etc and you're still left with a lot of shit jobs on low pay with a lot of insecurity. 

    2. I'm not actually sure what that quote in bold actually means. So let's say that nothing exists and we are all mere illusions of potential within a galaxy of possibilities. 

    3. Regarding your postscript piece: I've never called you a racist or a zenophobe (sic) and nor have I made claims about you reading the Mail. Instead I've reflected on what you've written here in this forum and let that speak for itself. As seen in other threads, some started by yourself, you complain about being the victim. That you complain about someone trying to stereotype you in a certain way whilst using the phrase 'liberal fascists' simply toasts the coals of my warm Yuletide heart. 

    4. Uncontrolled immigration is a problem and I've long espoused a controlled system. Many of the points you raise over an EU superstate and immigration are valid and ones that made me seriously consider voting Leave. In the end I did not vote that way because I was concerned that it would embolden a new strain of patriotic idiot bluster alongside the usual swivel-eyed political loons (the calls for Farage to be knighted for instance). Going by today's Mail headline, I was right not to do so. The EU has infrastructural problems that go right to the core and is in need of serious reform but frankly I'd still favour that over the sort of mindless bullshit we saw directed toward British judges over the Article 50 case. 


    Re: #1 -
    If we weren't so overpopulated, with a high supply of labour, then wages would be better, we wouldn't have so much wage stagnation, and we would less insecure and 'gig economy' type jobs.  Combine a relatively free market economy with freedom of movement and uncontrolled (and relatively uncontrolled) immigration, then this is what happens.  The sooner the Labour Party is prepared to recognise that, and actually align better with the demographic they purport to most look after the interests of, then they might get back into power sooner. 

    Re: #2
    Typical of your debating style in these political discussions to avoid addressing stats and facts.

    Re: #3
    Well done for misrepresenting what I actually wrote.
    I wrote that you often portray me as some kind of Daily Mail reading rightwinger. 
    I have better things to than trawl over your past posts to find all the things you've said about me and called me.. One I do remember is that you called me 'Alt Right'.

    As for criticising using stereotypes, who are the "usual swivel eyed political loons" you refer to?  Pot kettle black, as per usual.   Is that your phrase for any supporter of a so-called Hard Brexit?

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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    Ro_S said:
    Does this mythical "couple with 2 kids" exist? 

    [...]

    I also have an issue with "Share of NHS" and "Share of Education" - would this money not be being spent *anyway*, even if they weren't in the country? Last time I checked the NHS budget didn't click up and down by 2.5k p.a. every time someone scanned their passport in or out at LHR. And what if they don't use any NHS services?

    Of course the example in that chart of a migrant couple, on a minimum wage, with two kids, exists in relaity.   What should be so unusual or mythical about it? 
    Besides, it's an illustrative example.

    Public spending budgets are based on planning related to ascertaining the demographic needs.   And when budgets and public spending get increased, someone needs to pay for it. 
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 6574
    p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
    Why? Long term it turns cross border hatred into York's/Lancs style banter.  

    Seriously what IS the attraction of warlike nationalist meatheadedness over friendly rivalry? I just don't get it, but then I don't get racism in general.  
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  • Dear Ro_S,

    1. Our overpopulation is down to two things: migration and a rising life expectancy. Pulling out the latter won't suddenly mean a wage boom as the years tick on and we have to deal with greater mechanisation of jobs. By all means hold out for this golden promised land. From where I sit, it looks as transparent as spending £350 million a week on the NHS once we leave Europe. 


    2. You said from the above passage:

     "You're arguing that situation, and one likes it, doesn't exist?". 

    I have no idea what you mean there. It's garbled English. Being able to quote stats is simple: being able to form a coherent argument utilising them is another. The stats as presented show a potential situation which is going to be true in some circles. It's certainly not the overwhelming majority of migrant situations though. So if you want to degarble the above quote, I'll happily respond. 

    3. 
    Now you assert that I called you "Alt Right". This must be a fact because you can remember it. As I'm adept at using search engines, let's see what I did write then. 

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1706885/#Comment_1706885

    If you feel that the above post is me calling you "Alt Right", then logic dictates that I'm also accusing you of being a bingo card. 

    My conclusion: your memory is faulty. 


    4. Me apparently criticising the use of stereotypes - I actually wrote this above:

    "That you complain about someone trying to stereotype you in a certain way whilst using the phrase 'liberal fascists' simply toasts the coals of my warm Yuletide heart."

    I haven't been the one to complain about stereotypes. You did complain about people stereotyping you whilst stereotyping some people. That's a chain that can only amuse. 

    5. Swivel eyed political loons - they exist on all sides. They exist within the Momentum camp, they exist within the Remain camp, they exist in the Leave camp. As a poll clerk on Referendum Day in a quiet area of Bristol, I can anecdotally say that the number of Remain lunatics who came in shouting and spouting off was one (he came into the polling station saying he was here to make sure the Farage Nazis didn't win): the number of Leavers who came in with their paranoid bullshit about not voting with a pencil because it'll get rubbed out was around 30. There are many commentators I respect for their hard Brexit views and arguments. The type of argument that says Farage should be knighted and we should just leave right now because we can, y'know, that's swivel-eyed lunacy to me within that particular field. 

    6. I would certainly refute the idea that I constantly portray you as some Mail-reading right wing person. I don't need to, your posts say more than I ever could. So please refrain from these senseless accusations. When I have called you names, as I did here, they're rather obvious and direct. So I'll keep the Arkell versus Pressdram response for another time. 


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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    Dear Ro_S,

    3. Now you assert that I called you "Alt Right". This must be a fact because you can remember it. As I'm adept at using search engines, let's see what I did write then. 

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1706885/#Comment_1706885

    If you feel that the above post is me calling you "Alt Right", then logic dictates that I'm also accusing you of being a bingo card. 

    My conclusion: your memory is faulty. 

    That's just an example of one post you've said about him.

    Where's the 'Alt Right' one?   Please go look harder.  It was certainly someone.  Maybe my memory is failing me, but I am pretty sure it was you.
    Besides, that's that kind of mud you throw at me.
    (EDIT: that link got changed.  Yes, in that post you do accuse me of being Alt Right.  That's the clear implication.)

    Btw, did you never get put in the cooler for that post? (EDIT: the link got changed.  the link i saw first was the one when you called me a "sack of shit")   I guess some are more equal than others on here.  I'm still waiting to find out why I got put in the cooler; I was never given a specific reason.   Having views in the political sub forum that some others don't like, seems to be the reason.  

    You were clerk in a poll station?  Do you work in local government?  I can well imagine you working in local govt.   That would fit.

    Given your intolerance to others expressing their views, I'm surprised you didn't refuse to give ballot papers to those voting for Brexit.

    Are you gonna explain who the particular "swivel eyed loons" are that you were referring to?
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  • Ro_S said:
    Dear Ro_S,

    3. Now you assert that I called you "Alt Right". This must be a fact because you can remember it. As I'm adept at using search engines, let's see what I did write then. 

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1706885/#Comment_1706885

    If you feel that the above post is me calling you "Alt Right", then logic dictates that I'm also accusing you of being a bingo card. 

    My conclusion: your memory is faulty. 

    That's just an example of one post you've said about him.


    I shall address your other concerns elsewhere but the above quote puzzles me. You appear to be referring to yourself in the third person here. 


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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    ^ someone is playing about with the contents of the posts.
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  • Ro_S said:
    Dear Ro_S,

    3. Now you assert that I called you "Alt Right". This must be a fact because you can remember it. As I'm adept at using search engines, let's see what I did write then. 

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1706885/#Comment_1706885

    If you feel that the above post is me calling you "Alt Right", then logic dictates that I'm also accusing you of being a bingo card. 

    My conclusion: your memory is faulty. 

    That's just an example of one post you've said about him.

    Where's the 'Alt Right' one?   Please go look harder.  It was certainly someone.  Maybe my memory is failing me, but I am pretty sure it was you.
    Besides, that's that kind of mud you throw at me.
    (EDIT: that link got changed.  Yes, in that post you do accuse me of being Alt Right.  That's the clear implication.)

    Btw, did you never get put in the cooler for that post?   I guess some are more equal than others on here.  I'm still waiting to find out why I got put in the cooler; I was never given a specific reason.   Having views in the political sub forum that some others don't like, seems to be the reason.  

    You were clerk in a poll station?  Do you work in local government?  I can well imagine you working in local govt.   That would fit.

    Given your intolerance to others expressing their views, I'm surprised you didn't refuse to give ballot papers to those voting for Brexit.

    Are you gonna explain who the particular "swivel eyed loons" are that you were referring to?

    1. "Him". Is that like the Royal "We"?

    2. By your standards, I called you Alt Right in that post, I therefore also called you a bingo card. I feel your pain over that. That at least establishes a level of reading comprehension that is irregular. 

    3. No cooler for me. Probably because I'm not a consistent asshole. I have my moments of sheer fuckwittery but it's not a constant state of being. 

    4. Anyone over 18 can be a clerk in a polling station. I no longer work in local or regional government nor in city government overseas.

    5. "Given your intolerance to others expressing their views, I'm surprised you didn't refuse to give ballot papers to those voting for Brexit."

    -When it comes to this forum, I have debated for goodness how many words with people. From memory, I believe I've flagged up one post in all that time. Tell me Ro, how many times have you flagged up posts? I at least know more about your flagging activities than you do about mine. 

    -When it comes to ballot papers, it is my job to hand out papers providing their identity can be verified. As a regular clerk, I always bring my own pens of various types. SO my dear chap, rather than being a Brexit destroyer as you are alluding to, I was actually a Brexit vote enabler by allowing citizens the loan of my well used Sharpies to vote with.

    Of course, if you'd prefer to suggest that I'd stop people legitimately voting, then carry on. 

    6. Within the confines of this thread, it's pretty clear who the swivel eyed loon is this lunchtime. 

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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    @Heartfeltdawn  ;;;;

    Workers at polling stations are quite typically local govt employees.

    You have worked in local govt and similar - fairly extensively by the sounds of it - so I was right on that suspicion.

    The clear implication in that that post of yours was that you were calling me or suggesting I was Alt Right.  Nothing wrong with my comprehension abilities.   Why back track on it?

    (how come the post linked got changed?)

    I never said you flagged any of my posts.   Go check your own comprehension.   I said you were intolerant to others expressing their views when you don't like those views.  You attack and insult, rather than actually address the subject.  You don't want them to post. 

    Still waiting for you to explain who the particular "swivel eyed loons" are that you were referring to earlier.
    Again, whenever you get called out on anything that is inconvenient, you just avoid the issue. 

    p.s.
    Go organise your pens. Pauline's pens.
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  • My dear confused little Porg,

    For the elections I've done, most workers at poll clerk level have been retired people or students. Presiding officers tend to be local government workers though as it makes distributing the election supplies much easier. 

    If I wanted to suggest that you were Alt Right, I'd say it. The direct nature of me that called you a sanctimonious sack of shit is also there on the Alt Right front. Instead, go with what I said. Some flirting with Alt Right tropes doesn't make you Alt Right. 

    The post linked didn't change. There are two links in my post here.

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1730216/#Comment_1730216

    One is in section 2, the other is in section 6. As you can see, I haven't edited my post. 

    " I said you were intolerant to others expressing their views when you don't like those views.  You attack and insult, rather than actually address the subject.  You don't want them to post."

    Why do you speak about "them"? That suggests a weakness of mind, that you have to bump things up into me attacking row after row of people. Really it's been you.

    I've already explained 'swivel eyed loons'. If you wish to believe that I am claiming that anyone in favour of hard Brexit is a swivel eyed loon, then be all means believe whatever you like. 


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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    @Heartfeltdawn ;;; 

    I don't doubt that the local govt workers are good at managing the election stationery supplies. 

    So it's just me who you don't like expressing views in the politics sub forum?  How very discriminatory. 

    You still haven't explained who the ''swivel eyed political loons" are.   Is it those 'hard brexit' supporters who also voted for UKIP in the past? 

    Btw, I don't see why Nigel Farage shouldn't get an MBE, OBE, knighthood or peerage or something - given what other people get them.  I don't align with Farage or UKIP in general politically, but if it hadn't been for UKIP and Farage, we would never have had a referendum on the EU.  

    p.s. no idea what a porg is.
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  • p90fool said:
    p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
    Why? Long term it turns cross border hatred into York's/Lancs style banter.  

    Seriously what IS the attraction of warlike nationalist meatheadedness over friendly rivalry? I just don't get it, but then I don't get racism in general.  
    The ghastly bit is the homogenised superstate. That's as ghastly as the warlike nationalist meatheadedness to which you refer.

    I speak as someone who is Englisn, not British, and not European. In fact I sometimes doubt the wisdom of a united 'England'; once groups of people get too big they get too powerful.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    p90fool said:
    p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
    Why? Long term it turns cross border hatred into York's/Lancs style banter.  

    Seriously what IS the attraction of warlike nationalist meatheadedness over friendly rivalry? I just don't get it, but then I don't get racism in general.  
    you seem to conflate nationalism, patriotism and racism as being the same thing?

    btw, when were Yorks and Lancs separate countries or kingdoms? 

    And lumping Yugoslavia together worked out well, didn't it.  No fighting or genocide came out of that.
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  • "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    We have somewhat better transport and communications nowadays.

    Are you seeking to roll back on the achievements of the heirs of King Alfred, to your Danelaw and further back?

    I don't mind a hard border at Offa's Dyke and Hadrian's Wall, though.

    I refuse to pay the EUgeld.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13104
    p90fool said:
    p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
    Why? Long term it turns cross border hatred into York's/Lancs style banter.  

    Seriously what IS the attraction of warlike nationalist meatheadedness over friendly rivalry? I just don't get it, but then I don't get racism in general.  
    The ghastly bit is the homogenised superstate. That's as ghastly as the warlike nationalist meatheadedness to which you refer.

    I speak as someone who is Englisn, not British, and not European. In fact I sometimes doubt the wisdom of a united 'England'; once groups of people get too big they get too powerful.
    Great Britain makes sense - we are one island so being united helps with basic things like defence, transport, laws, police and so forth. However, in my opinion more power should be devolved to the regions to influence housing, jobs, health etc. A smaller parliament with less power gets my vote.

    When England was a collection of Kingdoms it was easy for the Danes to conquer. Alfred was bright enough to see you need one kingdom to ensure security and stability.
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  • I'd say Alfred was smart enough to realise you'd need a big enough kingdom to resist the Danes. I don't think he had much idea about what it would grow into. Even so, he wasn't concerned with trying to rule the Scots the Welsh and the Irish from a centralised government in England.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 6574
    Ro_S said:
    p90fool said:
    p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
    Why? Long term it turns cross border hatred into York's/Lancs style banter.  

    Seriously what IS the attraction of warlike nationalist meatheadedness over friendly rivalry? I just don't get it, but then I don't get racism in general.  
    you seem to conflate nationalism, patriotism and racism as being the same thing?

    btw, when were Yorks and Lancs separate countries or kingdoms? 

    And lumping Yugoslavia together worked out well, didn't it.  No fighting or genocide came out of that.
    You seem to think treating people differently depending on where they were born is NOT racism. 

    I'm not seriously calling anyone a racist on here, this thread is full of intelligent and rational argument, but I just don't have a border mentality at all, I relish people's different backgrounds and experiences. 
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    p90fool said:
    Ro_S said:
    p90fool said:
    p90fool said:
    seany65 said:
    It's part of the plan to turn the EU into a single country/superstate. 
    That would be genuinely awesome, I've really never seen the problem.
    Sounds ghastly
    Why? Long term it turns cross border hatred into York's/Lancs style banter.  

    Seriously what IS the attraction of warlike nationalist meatheadedness over friendly rivalry? I just don't get it, but then I don't get racism in general.  
    you seem to conflate nationalism, patriotism and racism as being the same thing?

    btw, when were Yorks and Lancs separate countries or kingdoms? 

    And lumping Yugoslavia together worked out well, didn't it.  No fighting or genocide came out of that.
    You seem to think treating people differently depending on where they were born is NOT racism. 

    I'm not seriously calling anyone a racist on here, this thread is full of intelligent and rational argument, but I just don't have a border mentality at all, I relish people's different backgrounds and experiences. 
    re: bold bit - what are you on about?
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited December 2017
    Fretwired said:

    When England was a collection of Kingdoms it was easy for the Danes to conquer. Alfred was bright enough to see you need one kingdom to ensure security and stability.
    Phil_aka_Pip said:
    I'd say Alfred was smart enough to realise you'd need a big enough kingdom to resist the Danes. I don't think he had much idea about what it would grow into. Even so, he wasn't concerned with trying to rule the Scots the Welsh and the Irish from a centralised government in England.
    re: King Alfred and the creation of England

    It was far more about dynastic ambitions and political opportunism, that what you both portray.   Well done for sucking up historical propaganda, though.

    Alfred's heirs barely managed to rule the whole of England, let alone worry about Wales and Scotlnd. 
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  • No one can be a racist, since the EU says races don't exist:

    According to European Council:
    The European Union rejects theories which attempt to determine the existence of separate human races.
    — Directive 2000/43/EC[143]


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