Gardiner n houlgate auctions.

musicman100

Just interested to see if anyone on here has actually used them. 

I picked up one of their catalogues at the Liverpool guitar show. 
after reading about their seller n buyer fees etc. 
It looks to me that there's only really going to be one winner and it's not the seller or the buyer!!!!! 

Also imo with this format is distorting used guitar prices. 
After you take into account both seller n buyer fees there is a big difference between what the seller has actually got n what someone has paid for a certain guitar. So then how on earth can you honestly value said guitar. 

TimmyO

musicman100 said:

 So then how on earth can you honestly value said guitar. 

Same way as always - what are you prepared to pay for it 

musicman100

TimmyO said:

musicman100 said:

 So then how on earth can you honestly value said guitar. 

Same way as always - what are you prepared to pay for it 

That's obviously but what i mean is in general when people starting talking about values 

HarrySeven

musicman100 said:

It looks to me that there's only really going to be one winner and it's not the seller or the buyer!!!!! 

After you take into account both seller and buyer fees there is a big difference between what the seller has actually got and what someone has paid for a certain guitar.

So then how on earth can you honestly value said guitar?

As some of you are undoubtedly aware, I'm no fan of GH and their exorbitant fees.

However @musicman100 - the model you describe is pretty much a standard business model, in the sense that:

a. Original Seller Y sells guitar to Dealer X for a certain sum (in the case of auctions, subtract Commission from final figure)

Then

b. Dealer X sells guitar to Purchaser Z, adding markup, VAT, etc (in the case of auctions, add Buyer's Premium and VAT)

I think hear what you're saying though - somewhere, in the middle of that, is a "real" price, or rather, value (the actual figure which the seller achieved after Commission).

Is that correct?

musicman100

HarrySeven said:

musicman100 said:

It looks to me that there's only really going to be one winner and it's not the seller or the buyer!!!!! 

After you take into account both seller and buyer fees there is a big difference between what the seller has actually got and what someone has paid for a certain guitar.

So then how on earth can you honestly value said guitar?

As some of you are undoubtedly aware, I'm no fan of GH and their exorbitant fees.

However @musicman100 - the model you describe is pretty much a standard business model, in the sense that:

a. Original Seller Y sells guitar to Dealer X for a certain sum (in the case of auctions, subtract Commission from final figure)

Then

b. Dealer X sells guitar to Purchaser Z, adding markup, VAT, etc (in the case of auctions, add Buyer's Premium and VAT)

I think hear what you're saying though - somewhere, in the middle of that, is a "real" price, or rather, value (the actual figure which the seller achieved after Commission).

Is that correct?

Yeah thats it mate. 
Cheers.

For example if a guitar sells at the hammer for let' say £1000 by the time you work out for the fees n vat etc there's a massive difference of hundreds of pounds between what the seller actually takes home n what the buyer has paid! 

prowla

I've looked at them and decided it's not worth the effort of bidding for the auctions I've seen.

However, if the right thing did come up then I'd go for it, but would bear in mind that there may be VAT to add along with 20% fees (+VAT).

TonyR

I have bought from them (not in person but by leaving a phone bid), back in 2015 for my Gretsch 6120AM. Including fees it came in at just over £1300, so I was well happy - the guitar is absolutely mint and it was a present to myself for my half century birthday.

I thought G&H were very helpful, they sent me additional high resolution photographs when I asked for them - and a good number of them too!

musicman100

TonyR said:

I have bought from them (not in person but by leaving a phone bid), back in 2015 for my Gretsch 6120AM. Including fees it came in at just over £1300, so I was well happy - the guitar is absolutely mint and it was a present to myself for my half century birthday.

I thought G&H were very helpful, they sent me additional high resolution photographs when I asked for them - and a good number of them too!

If you don't mind me asking what was the hammer price?


I bet the seller didn't get much more than £800ish though. 

musicman100

prowla said:

I've looked at them and decided it's not worth the effort of bidding for the auctions I've seen.

However, if the right thing did come up then I'd go for it, but would bear in mind that there may be VAT to add along with 20% fees (+VAT).

Yeah I agree.
If it's something rare or some you have been wanting for a while then maybe but it's the 20% plus vat that doesn't sit well with me. 

designerseye88

I have bought from GH, Hammer price was £1000. In total i paid £1240 (£200 VAT + £40 fees)

TonyR

musicman100 said:

If you don't mind me asking what was the hammer price?

@musicman100 hammer price was £1050 - see here

blobb

...and they make you use their 'approved' courier if you can't be there to collect.

It used to be worth it. No bargains anymore, in fact the prices went crazy a few auctions back. Xmas is always the priciest I find.

Some of the back end lots can be picked up cheap as most bidders log off after they have seen the thing they were interested in. That's usually a job lot of pedals or something like that - so the delivery issue kicks in at that point.

I've had a few good bargains off them in the past but it's different now.

musicman100

blobb said:

...and they make you use their 'approved' courier if you can't be there to collect.

It used to be worth it. No bargains anymore, in fact the prices went crazy a few auctions back. Xmas is always the priciest I find.

Some of the back end lots can be picked up cheap as most bidders log off after they have seen the thing they were interested in. That's usually a job lot of pedals or something like that - so the delivery issue kicks in at that point.

I've had a few good bargains off them in the past but it's different now.

And don't they charge you a fee to bid online??

musicman100

TonyR said:

musicman100 said:

If you don't mind me asking what was the hammer price?

@musicman100 hammer price was £1050 - see here

Cool.

So basically a £400 price difference between seller n buyer?  

Treewig1

By this measure, the same thinking applies to an import.  What is the 'real' price: the US dollar price (say) or the price after you've imported the guitar?

TonyR

musicman100 said:
So basically a £400 price difference between seller n buyer? 

It would seem so - quite a profit for G&H eh?

merlin

TonyR said:

musicman100 said:
So basically a £400 price difference between seller n buyer? 

It would seem so - quite a profit for G&H eh?

You have to work out what "profit" means though. They have a lot of professional staff who have huge knowledge in a vast array of different "product". They have a huge storage facility that probably has a fairly small rental (they are on an industrial estate in the middle of nowhere) but probably have HUGE insurance overheads. They have a full time staff who deal in admin.... They possibly move items all over the country, again incurring overheads. I'm not sure that their "profit" is that great. 

musicman100

merlin said:

TonyR said:

musicman100 said:
So basically a £400 price difference between seller n buyer? 

It would seem so - quite a profit for G&H eh?

You have to work out what "profit" means though. They have a lot of professional staff who have huge knowledge in a vast array of different "product". They have a huge storage facility that probably has a fairly small rental (they are on an industrial estate in the middle of nowhere) but probably have HUGE insurance overheads. They have a full time staff who deal in admin.... They possibly move items all over the country, again incurring overheads. I'm not sure that their "profit" is that great. 

Do you work for them? Lol

I'm not disputing their profits.
My main point is the different between sellers amount and the buyers total cost. 

Blacksheep

Why would it distort the market? The percentage of used guitars sold by auctioneers is tiny.
And a 20% buyers premium at auction is not remarkable. Some of the big name auction houses charge 25%. 
Surely if you're a potential buyer you factor in fees and VAT, decide how much you're willing to pay and bid accordingly?
if you are a seller you are aware of the fees and have made the decision to accept them.

Strat54

GH's charges are certainly the norm for their trade. I looked at one of the main guitar auctioneers in the US recently and they were charging 25% plus they charged $300 per hour to initially appraise an instrument. 
 Have a look at GH's accounts online, they are not making millions at this. 

Neil

It's just normal auction practise. @merlin outlined it best.

Regarding values of guitars, outside of private purchase (where values fluctuate wildly) that would depend on whether you were a buyer or seller.

I'm sure most dealers would be looking at least a 50% profit between buying and selling.