Graham Coxon tone and playing on Charmless Man

p90fool

Great player and writer, try playing along with him to see how something simple and poppy-sounding can keep pulling the rug from under you. 

That's a real art, up there with The Beatles, Crowded House and Steely Dan, in their own different ways. 

impmann

p90fool said:

Great player and writer, try playing along with him to see how something simple and poppy-sounding can keep pulling the rug from under you. 

That's a real art, up there with The Beatles, Crowded House and Steely Dan, in their own different ways. 

THIS

Try playing this is a low live and make it sound as 'together' as this with the same feeling and dynamics (I love the evil look at his amps at the beginning of the solo - I was there that night and he was having trouble with them, one was frying bacon most of the night)



My dream supergroup would have Bernard Butler and Graham on guitars - probably with Alex on bass (criminally underrated).

Modellista

I'm loving this thread - there's clearly a few here of a similar age to have grown up with Coxon, Butler, Marr, (and yes, to a lesser extent, Gallagher) as guitar heroes to look up to and learn from.

Coxon's brilliance comes from being able to craft quite obscure-sounding guitar parts around the accessible, hummable vocal melodies that Albarn came up with.  The yin-yang relationship essential to any successful songwriting partnership.  Every Blur album is a stylistic shift from the last, with perhaps the partial exception of The Great Escape which could be argued is simply Parklife part 2.  

I'd put Coxon up there with any non-instrumental/band-based guitarist of the past few decades.  He's sustained Blur for thirty years, along with his own solo stuff which is brilliant of itself.  Even his singing voice, never his strong point, makes sense in the context of his own songs.

Modellista

tampaxboo said:

pretty sure it's a tele and a rat, from what i remember reading about his kit.

as for coxon's rep, my abiding feeling is that had he not been in blur he may have done something genuinely interesting. his work with blur only interests me after all the stupidity of britpop. beetle bum is cool. he's trying to do something different around that time. but i think damon's totp-or-bust mentality sort of stunted his progress. it's clever but is it art, etc.

on the other hand, butler fully deserves his rep. i think he maybe squared things with brett in a way that coxon didn't square things with damon, so that he owned the musical side. it was clearly demarcated and all his territory.
my impression (from what i've read) is that coxon got pissed off with blur (well damon, let's be specific) because the band dynamic became him being allowed to do what he wanted... as long as it was ok with damon. which is no one's idea of creative freedom really.

when bernard left suede it was a huge shame. when coxon left blur it was kinda so what?

I enjoyed reading this but I'm not sure I agree with everything.  I think it's a bit much to expect Coxon to have achieved more if he wasn't in Blur.  Being the musical force behind a groundbreaking band who straddled multiple genres over thirty years is quite an achievement.  Plus his solo output exists, so we know exactly how a Blur-less Coxon would have sounded - it's good, but it's not as stunning as Blur at their best.  Fair enough, some people don't like the Britpop era despite it being the last British guitar movement, but really only two of their albums are full-on Britpop, and even then they're some of that genre's cleverest and most beautiful work.

I can't see much of a difference in the tumultuous relationship between Butler and Anderson compared to Coxon and Albarn.  It's practically the same thing - ego-driven singer seeks to control band's artistic direction, genius-level guitarist objects to being pushed around.  It's always going to be the same.  

As for your last line - when Bernard left Suede they went on to have a massively successful career with his replacement which still endures to this day, while Bernard has never really regained his status as a guitar hero.  When Coxon left Blur they floundered around and never recorded an album without him, and he's been back in the band for nearly ten years.  While I agree that Bernard leaving Suede was a shame, in my opinion he needed them more than they needed him, which is the opposite to Blur and Coxon.

JayGee

tampaxboo said:

...as for coxon's rep, my abiding feeling is that had he not been in blur he may have done something genuinely interesting. his work with blur only interests me after all the stupidity of britpop.

Something like this...

https://youtu.be/tBG2_MYdTS4

...perhaps?

GC’s solo stuff is actually pretty damn good, and there are 8 albums of it!
A

Oddly enough I only discovered GC as a guitarist (as against someone who plays guitar in a pop group IYSWIM) after I’d bought a Graham Coxon signature Telecaster, (which I got because it was a really useful, appealing spec at a great price point rather than because of the artist connection). Subsequently Mrs JayGee (who’s taste in music tends to run somewhat ahead of mine) left a copy of “Happiness In Magazines” in the car CD player, “Freaking Out” came on when I turned the ignition, and I became a bit of a fan very shortly afterwards...

Musicman20

darthed1981 said:

I find it quite reassuring that even the normally superb Rabea managed to murder This Charming Man when Andertons did sound like the Smiths.

Marr remains an absolute legend. I'm scurrying off to get my QID vinyl my wife just got me

It was absolutely awful to be honest. I much prefer Marr's style over the blues/shred guys.

kt66

check out this guy, I think he's an incredible player and good teacher too 

impmann

modellista said:

tampaxboo said:

pretty sure it's a tele and a rat, from what i remember reading about his kit.

as for coxon's rep, my abiding feeling is that had he not been in blur he may have done something genuinely interesting. his work with blur only interests me after all the stupidity of britpop. beetle bum is cool. he's trying to do something different around that time. but i think damon's totp-or-bust mentality sort of stunted his progress. it's clever but is it art, etc.

on the other hand, butler fully deserves his rep. i think he maybe squared things with brett in a way that coxon didn't square things with damon, so that he owned the musical side. it was clearly demarcated and all his territory.
my impression (from what i've read) is that coxon got pissed off with blur (well damon, let's be specific) because the band dynamic became him being allowed to do what he wanted... as long as it was ok with damon. which is no one's idea of creative freedom really.

when bernard left suede it was a huge shame. when coxon left blur it was kinda so what?

I enjoyed reading this but I'm not sure I agree with everything.  I think it's a bit much to expect Coxon to have achieved more if he wasn't in Blur.  Being the musical force behind a groundbreaking band who straddled multiple genres over thirty years is quite an achievement.  Plus his solo output exists, so we know exactly how a Blur-less Coxon would have sounded - it's good, but it's not as stunning as Blur at their best.  Fair enough, some people don't like the Britpop era despite it being the last British guitar movement, but really only two of their albums are full-on Britpop, and even then they're some of that genre's cleverest and most beautiful work.

I can't see much of a difference in the tumultuous relationship between Butler and Anderson compared to Coxon and Albarn.  It's practically the same thing - ego-driven singer seeks to control band's artistic direction, genius-level guitarist objects to being pushed around.  It's always going to be the same.  

As for your last line - when Bernard left Suede they went on to have a massively successful career with his replacement which still endures to this day, while Bernard has never really regained his status as a guitar hero.  When Coxon left Blur they floundered around and never recorded an album without him, and he's been back in the band for nearly ten years.  While I agree that Bernard leaving Suede was a shame, in my opinion he needed them more than they needed him, which is the opposite to Blur and Coxon.

Hmmm - not sure I totally agree about Bernard post Suede. McAlmont & Butler was a SUPERB partnership and the single "Yes" was epic. Their performance on Jools is still up there as one of the best ever - deffo up there with Faithless' insane set that just wiped the floor with everyone else on that show.



He then went on to work with Duffy (albeit mainly as a writer/producer). I get the feeling that these days he feels he doesn't have anything to 'prove' and for the record Suede may have had a lot of success in the charts with Richard Oakes on guitar but frankly the music wasn't anything like as good (Brett has even said as much in an interview for the stuff he did with Bernard for 'The Tears'). The later Suede was more pop-oriented and whilst it had hum along bits, I wouldn't put any of it in the same league as The Wild Ones or So Young. But that's just my opinion.

cruxiform

kt66 said:

check out this guy, I think he's an incredible player and good teacher too 

Seconded. Adrian is a great teacher. 

Modellista

impmann said:

modellista said:

tampaxboo said:

pretty sure it's a tele and a rat, from what i remember reading about his kit.

as for coxon's rep, my abiding feeling is that had he not been in blur he may have done something genuinely interesting. his work with blur only interests me after all the stupidity of britpop. beetle bum is cool. he's trying to do something different around that time. but i think damon's totp-or-bust mentality sort of stunted his progress. it's clever but is it art, etc.

on the other hand, butler fully deserves his rep. i think he maybe squared things with brett in a way that coxon didn't square things with damon, so that he owned the musical side. it was clearly demarcated and all his territory.
my impression (from what i've read) is that coxon got pissed off with blur (well damon, let's be specific) because the band dynamic became him being allowed to do what he wanted... as long as it was ok with damon. which is no one's idea of creative freedom really.

when bernard left suede it was a huge shame. when coxon left blur it was kinda so what?

I enjoyed reading this but I'm not sure I agree with everything.  I think it's a bit much to expect Coxon to have achieved more if he wasn't in Blur.  Being the musical force behind a groundbreaking band who straddled multiple genres over thirty years is quite an achievement.  Plus his solo output exists, so we know exactly how a Blur-less Coxon would have sounded - it's good, but it's not as stunning as Blur at their best.  Fair enough, some people don't like the Britpop era despite it being the last British guitar movement, but really only two of their albums are full-on Britpop, and even then they're some of that genre's cleverest and most beautiful work.

I can't see much of a difference in the tumultuous relationship between Butler and Anderson compared to Coxon and Albarn.  It's practically the same thing - ego-driven singer seeks to control band's artistic direction, genius-level guitarist objects to being pushed around.  It's always going to be the same.  

As for your last line - when Bernard left Suede they went on to have a massively successful career with his replacement which still endures to this day, while Bernard has never really regained his status as a guitar hero.  When Coxon left Blur they floundered around and never recorded an album without him, and he's been back in the band for nearly ten years.  While I agree that Bernard leaving Suede was a shame, in my opinion he needed them more than they needed him, which is the opposite to Blur and Coxon.

Hmmm - not sure I totally agree about Bernard post Suede. McAlmont & Butler was a SUPERB partnership and the single "Yes" was epic. Their performance on Jools is still up there as one of the best ever - deffo up there with Faithless' insane set that just wiped the floor with everyone else on that show.



He then went on to work with Duffy (albeit mainly as a writer/producer). I get the feeling that these days he feels he doesn't have anything to 'prove' and for the record Suede may have had a lot of success in the charts with Richard Oakes on guitar but frankly the music wasn't anything like as good (Brett has even said as much in an interview for the stuff he did with Bernard for 'The Tears'). The later Suede was more pop-oriented and whilst it had hum along bits, I wouldn't put any of it in the same league as The Wild Ones or So Young. But that's just my opinion.

I'd agree with a lot of what you've said there.  The McAlmont partnership was indeed a strong one, and the singles are great.  But Butler was on a roll straight after Dog Man Star and presumably felt he had something to prove - it's almost an extension of the DMS project.  And they never really played live, although I was unaware of the reunion in 2008 and 2015 which Wikipedia has just told me about.  I guess my point is that since 1994 Butler hasn't really capitalised on his two astonishing albums with Suede in any other partnership, nor has he had a guitar-playing solo career of note.  He is a very successful and well-respected producer, but his side-man duties are simply frustrating for only hinting at his former glories.  A saw him play with Everything But The Girl man Ben Watt in the latter's solo band, and whilst Butler played beautifully (and had an amazing cache of lovely Gibsons and Gretsches all played through a Lazy Z), there were just enough flashes of his previous astonishing heights to be deeply frustrating - why can't he find a proper rock band where he can finally let rip again?  For me, that's the minor tragedy of Bernard Butler.

And I think we can all agree that the only thing Oakes could beat Butler at would be a pie-eating contest, but the band remain brilliant with him in it, so what to make of that?  Suede's ability to continue regardless of losing one of the best guitarists of a generation is one of the great musical paradoxes of our times.

DannyP

impmann said:

modellista said:

tampaxboo said:

pretty sure it's a tele and a rat, from what i remember reading about his kit.

as for coxon's rep, my abiding feeling is that had he not been in blur he may have done something genuinely interesting. his work with blur only interests me after all the stupidity of britpop. beetle bum is cool. he's trying to do something different around that time. but i think damon's totp-or-bust mentality sort of stunted his progress. it's clever but is it art, etc.

on the other hand, butler fully deserves his rep. i think he maybe squared things with brett in a way that coxon didn't square things with damon, so that he owned the musical side. it was clearly demarcated and all his territory.
my impression (from what i've read) is that coxon got pissed off with blur (well damon, let's be specific) because the band dynamic became him being allowed to do what he wanted... as long as it was ok with damon. which is no one's idea of creative freedom really.

when bernard left suede it was a huge shame. when coxon left blur it was kinda so what?

I enjoyed reading this but I'm not sure I agree with everything.  I think it's a bit much to expect Coxon to have achieved more if he wasn't in Blur.  Being the musical force behind a groundbreaking band who straddled multiple genres over thirty years is quite an achievement.  Plus his solo output exists, so we know exactly how a Blur-less Coxon would have sounded - it's good, but it's not as stunning as Blur at their best.  Fair enough, some people don't like the Britpop era despite it being the last British guitar movement, but really only two of their albums are full-on Britpop, and even then they're some of that genre's cleverest and most beautiful work.

I can't see much of a difference in the tumultuous relationship between Butler and Anderson compared to Coxon and Albarn.  It's practically the same thing - ego-driven singer seeks to control band's artistic direction, genius-level guitarist objects to being pushed around.  It's always going to be the same.  

As for your last line - when Bernard left Suede they went on to have a massively successful career with his replacement which still endures to this day, while Bernard has never really regained his status as a guitar hero.  When Coxon left Blur they floundered around and never recorded an album without him, and he's been back in the band for nearly ten years.  While I agree that Bernard leaving Suede was a shame, in my opinion he needed them more than they needed him, which is the opposite to Blur and Coxon.

Hmmm - not sure I totally agree about Bernard post Suede. McAlmont & Butler was a SUPERB partnership and the single "Yes" was epic. Their performance on Jools is still up there as one of the best ever - deffo up there with Faithless' insane set that just wiped the floor with everyone else on that show.



He then went on to work with Duffy (albeit mainly as a writer/producer). I get the feeling that these days he feels he doesn't have anything to 'prove' and for the record Suede may have had a lot of success in the charts with Richard Oakes on guitar but frankly the music wasn't anything like as good (Brett has even said as much in an interview for the stuff he did with Bernard for 'The Tears'). The later Suede was more pop-oriented and whilst it had hum along bits, I wouldn't put any of it in the same league as The Wild Ones or So Young. But that's just my opinion.

Everything you say here is correct. Couldn't agree more.

streethawk

darthed1981 said:

I find it quite reassuring that even the normally superb Rabea managed to murder This Charming Man when Andertons did sound like the Smiths.

Marr remains an absolute legend. I'm scurrying off to get my QID vinyl my wife just got me

Similar to Phil X murdering Under The Bridge.

I think we just assume technically gifted shredders and bluesman types can pull anything off after a couple of listens. Doesn't work like that. 

Musicman20

streethawk said:

darthed1981 said:

I find it quite reassuring that even the normally superb Rabea managed to murder This Charming Man when Andertons did sound like the Smiths.

Marr remains an absolute legend. I'm scurrying off to get my QID vinyl my wife just got me

Similar to Phil X murdering Under The Bridge.

I think we just assume technically gifted shredders and bluesman types can pull anything off after a couple of listens. Doesn't work like that. 

Aye!

darthed1981

Just re-reading all the posts above about Suede and Butler post flounce...

I love both's outputs afterwards.  Bernard hasn't done much in recent years but his two solo albums (especially the first) are must-listens for fans (I adore the singles), and both McAlmont and Butler albums are good.  "Yes" and "You Do" remain masterpieces.

As for Suede, "Coming Up" is a favourite of mine, but "Head Music" and especially "A New Morning" are ropey for long stretches, though perfectly listenable.  However, Suede's two albums since their comeback are both really, really good IMHO.

meltedbuzzbox

kt66 said:

check out this guy, I think he's an incredible player and good teacher too 

I know the notes are correct but it sounds off and the feel isn't right on the arpeggios to my ears

stickyfiddle

meltedbuzzbox said:

kt66 said:

check out this guy, I think he's an incredible player and good teacher too 

I know the notes are correct but it sounds off and the feel isn't right on the arpeggios to my ears

I know what you mean. It doesn't have the "bounce" to it that Marr has in spades.

Fozz

Thanks to this thread have spent the day listening to Blur and Suede. Thanks for reminding me how good they are!

cruxiform

stickyfiddle said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

kt66 said:

check out this guy, I think he's an incredible player and good teacher too 

I know the notes are correct but it sounds off and the feel isn't right on the arpeggios to my ears

I know what you mean. It doesn't have the "bounce" to it that Marr has in spades.

To be fair I thought the same but his lessons generally are very good. For Smiths lessons I’ve found Alison Bennett to be very good:

https://youtu.be/svrg0SCxxN0

breakstuff

Agreed @cruxiform Alison Bennett is brilliant. I've just learnt What Difference Does It Make using her lesson.

fields5069

darthed1981 said: mi

Just re-reading all the posts above about Suede and Butler post flounce...

I love both's outputs afterwards.  Bernard hasn't done much in recent years but his two solo albums (especially the first) are must-listens for fans (I adore the singles), and both McAlmont and Butler albums are good.  "Yes" and "You Do" remain masterpieces.

As for Suede, "Coming Up" is a favourite of mine, but "Head Music" and especially "A New Morning" are ropey for long stretches, though perfectly listenable.  However, Suede's two albums since their comeback are both really, really good IMHO.

For me, what makes "the sound of" even more immense is the fact that it was the entire output before they split the first time. There are maybe a couple of tracks which I tire of after a while, the rest stands up to very heavy rotation. An absolute classic.