Why some people voted for Brexit - when free movement affects people's lives

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2719
    Ro_S said:
    ICBM said:
    And I will say it again here - the referendum did not include any questions about the nature of 'Brexit', so any form, including the so-called "Brexit in name only", does reflect the referendum result. You can't claim to know what the Leave voters wanted when they voted for it.
    'Brexit' means no longer being a member state of the EU.  

    People did not vote to leave the EU so that we would end up in Norway's relationship with the EU, that I am confident of.
    problem is, the referendum was a straight in or out choice
    there was nothing there indicating the degree of in or out because none of that was laid out before hand..

    careful what you wish for and all that sort of thing..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    edited December 2017
    Ro_S said:

    'Brexit' means no longer being a member state of the EU.  

    People did not vote to leave the EU so that we would end up in Norway's relationship with the EU, that I am confident of.
    Norway is not a member state of the EU.

    People who didn’t vote in the referendum were happy staying in the EU, so there was no majority in favour of leaving the EU at all, that I am confident of.



    You can’t have it both ways and know what both groups actually wanted, although you no doubt think you can.

    Since no-one knows what the Leave voters actually wanted, we have to hand it back to the politicians now.

    For what it’s worth, if the ‘Norway option’ had been on the ballot paper I might have voted for it in the first place.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    Clarky said:
    problem is, the referendum was a straight in or out choice
    there was nothing there indicating the degree of in or out because none of that was laid out before hand.
    That's why the 'soft' Brexit/'hard' brexit thing is a load of conceptual crap used by Remoaners.    Brexit means that we will no longer be a member state of the EU. end of.   It doesn't mean attempting to defacto remain a EU member state, but not be on the EU Council and in the EU parliament..
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 14836
    Ro_S said:
    Clarky said:
    problem is, the referendum was a straight in or out choice
    there was nothing there indicating the degree of in or out because none of that was laid out before hand.
    That's why the 'soft' Brexit/'hard' brexit thing is a load of conceptual crap used by Remoaners.

    The Brexit vote means that we will no longer be a member state of the EU. end of.   
    The UK is heading for a really soft Brexit on the EU's terms. It's actually pointless leaving .. "you can check out, but you can never leave" - The Eagles.

    We pay £40 billion and then Bariner is offering the UK a Canada Plus deal. The Canadian/EU deal offers free trade on goods but not services or food stuffs. German car makers will be happy but UK banks won't be.

    This is an utter cock-up. We should just have left and told them to duck off or stayed. This in-between mishmash of a deal makes us worse off.

    I voted Brexit but having the seen the utter mess May has made of it I think we'd be better staying in, and licking our wounds.
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  • Ro_S said:
    Clarky said:
    problem is, the referendum was a straight in or out choice
    there was nothing there indicating the degree of in or out because none of that was laid out before hand.
    That's why the 'soft' Brexit/'hard' brexit thing is a load of conceptual crap used by Remoaners.    Brexit means that we will no longer be a member state of the EU. end of.   It doesn't mean attempting to defacto remain a EU member state, but not be on the EU Council and in the EU parliament..

    When it comes to moaning, it's all you recently. 

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2719
    Ro_S said:
    Clarky said:
    problem is, the referendum was a straight in or out choice
    there was nothing there indicating the degree of in or out because none of that was laid out before hand.
    That's why the 'soft' Brexit/'hard' brexit thing is a load of conceptual crap used by Remoaners.    Brexit means that we will no longer be a member state of the EU. end of.   It doesn't mean attempting to defacto remain a EU member state, but not be on the EU Council and in the EU parliament..
    you are only seeing this from your own hard line perspective 

    given that no country has pulled out of the EU before, there is no precedent 
    it's all new ground..
    I'm guessing that the people negotiating this are convinced that breaking ties completely are not in the best interests of the country or economy.. which is why they are doing what they are doing..
    how I personally feel about that will be reflected the next time I vote [either in some sort of "what do you think about the deal" referendum, or the next general election]..

    there are very few facts in existence so far, beyond:
    - many people wanting the hard Brexit defend their point of view fanatically and with great hostility
    - the same is true for many of those that want to remain
    - leavers talk about the result like it was some sort of landslide.. it really wasn't.. it was far closer than that.. in my personal opinion, close enough not to justify referring to it as being an overwhelming "will of the people" thing.. not even 55/45
    - before the referendum, Cameron and the EU did not take the leave sentiment felt by some of the British public seriously enough, were convinced of a remain outcome and so the 'deal' offered was nothing short of insulting
    - both sides in the lead up to the vote spouted claims that were nothing short of lies and fantasy
    - within 6 months of the vote, my weekly shopping bill rose by more than 25%
    - the UK has always had control over immigration from both inside and outside of the EU. If you go to Belgium and are still unemployed after 3 months, you're shipped home.. this is perfectly ok within the EU. It is the fault of the British government not the EU that migration went the way it did

    on a personal note, this whole thing was needless and has become highly divisive
    it has caused fractures to families and communities that go right up to and within the government itself..
    the UK did not need to do this to itself, it simply needed to do other things better that were already well within its power
    the UK has basically broken itself right to the core

    irrespective of the way I voted, I am now completely confident that whatever the UK does next will be a huge mistake..
    and that also includes if the UK did a U-turn and chose to remain within the EU
    all paths from here on are not great and will I imagine take generations to put right
    and based upon what I've seen sort far, which ever mistake becomes the way forward for the UK, it will without any doubt be managed and delivered with breath taking incompetence..

    and after all this, I now feel like I'm a voter with nowhere to go..
    from what I see, there are no credible political parties in this country right now
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2719

    Fretwired said:

    This is an utter cock-up. We should just have left and told them to duck off or stayed. This in-between mishmash of a deal makes us worse off.

    I voted Brexit but having the seen the utter mess May has made of it I think we'd be better staying in, and licking our wounds.
    totally agree..
    either get out or stay.. this middle ground stuff will not go well..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    Heartfeltdawn said:
    When it comes to moaning, it's all you recently. 
    yes, but unlike the remoaners, I'm on the 'right' side of Brexit moaning - the side chosen in a democratic vote.

    (I did a little play on 'right' there for you to have fun with)

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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    edited December 2017
    @Clarky

    Aw, try to be optimistic.   A new year is ahead of us! 

    Jeremy Corbyn, the Brexit secret agent submariner, will instruct his troops to vote down a shitty May brexit deal at the 11th hour, and as a consequence we will leave the EU on a no deal  basis - the result Corbyn has always harboured (muahahaha) -  and the people will get the proper Brexit they voted for.   

    Two fingers to the fourth riech.   Rule Britannia.
    tehehe

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2719
    Ro_S said:
    @Clarky

    Aw, try to be optimistic.   A new year is ahead of us! 

    Jeremy Corbyn, the Brexit secret agent submariner, will instruct his troops to vote down a shitty May brexit deal at the 11th hour, and as a consequence we will leave the EU on a no deal  basis - the result Corbyn has always harboured (muahahaha) -  and the people will get the proper Brexit they voted for.   

    Two fingers to the fourth riech.   Rule Britannia.
    tehehe

    I think May is a disaster.. and the thought of Corbyn as PM scares me

    the only thing beyond me having my lil' vote every once and a while is that I can do sod all about this..
    just keep paying tax to contribute to the shoring up of the next mess our govt stumbles into

    btw - for entirely personal reasons [and certainly not for any love for the EU] I voted to remain and would do so again..
    I've not moaned about any of this even though I think it's a huge mistake
    being collectively referred to as a remoaner is highly offensive and simply contributes to continuing division and bad feeling..
    both sides in this whole thing seem to be very good at ranting and talking down to each other
    no good will come of this sort of behaviour no matter what your opinion on the subject
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    @Clarky -   FWIW,  I certainly don't regard all Remainers as Remoners. 

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  • Ro_S said:
    Heartfeltdawn said:
    When it comes to moaning, it's all you recently. 
    yes, but unlike the remoaners, I'm on the 'right' side of Brexit moaning - the side chosen in a democratic vote.


    The right side of Brexit = the side that demanded Parliament to be sovereign and away from EU dabbling yet complained about "Remoaners" when some Remainers forced Parliamentary sovereignty onto the Brexit process. 

    The right side of Brexit = the side that calls MPs who vote in accordance with how their constituents voted over Brexit "traitors". 

    "right" and "rational" are on separate pages. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 913
    The right side of Brexit = the side that demanded Parliament to be sovereign and away from EU dabbling yet complained about "Remoaners" when some Remainers forced Parliamentary sovereignty onto the Brexit process. 

    The right side of Brexit = the side that calls MPs who vote in accordance with how their constituents voted over Brexit "traitors". 

    For someone who often comes across a such a liberal, it's odd that you're so fond of bunching everyone together and making sweeping statements about them. 
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2286
    Back to the OP.

    My main reason for voting to leave wasnt "free movement", although it was a contributing factor. My main reason was simply, as I've stated before, Who Runs The Country? Our own home-grown fools, or foreign beaurocratic largely unelected fools? 
    I take it you are looking forward to the country being run by proxy by Trump, Murdoch and Dacre then ;)
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  • Ro_S said:
    The right side of Brexit = the side that demanded Parliament to be sovereign and away from EU dabbling yet complained about "Remoaners" when some Remainers forced Parliamentary sovereignty onto the Brexit process. 

    The right side of Brexit = the side that calls MPs who vote in accordance with how their constituents voted over Brexit "traitors". 

    For someone who often comes across a such a liberal, it's odd that you're so fond of bunching everyone together and making sweeping statements about them. 

    How can one side of the Brexit argument be classified as "everyone"? 

    Must be me and my hyper-liberal perspective.  

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2286
    The government lost the ruling because they took the wrong case. The ruling says it all:

    PILU said the High Court had shown itself willing to protect the rights of a vulnerable group of workers, adding: "Homelessness cannot humanely be dealt with by detaining or forcibly removing homeless people."
    If instead they removed people, as Belgium does, if they do not have a job within 3 month (seems harsh, I'd make it 6 months but anyway) rather that on the basis of whether or not they sleep rough, they'd have been fine.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    Ro_S said:

    Brexit means that we will no longer be a member state of the EU. end of.   It doesn't mean attempting to defacto remain a EU member state, but not be on the EU Council and in the EU parliament..
    Correct, but it in no way means that we *can't* be a member of the EFTA and the EEA. That question was not asked. It's entirely possible - and I hope happens - that we leave the EU and rejoin the EFTA. That will fulfil the result of the referendum - leaving the EU - but deliver what is probably the best possible outcome in economic terms.

    Politically it isn't ideal, but in practice it's not much different to where we are now, since we don't have any real say in the direction of EU policy anyway - almost every time there's a vote we're either voting with the majority in which case it changes nothing, or voting against as a minority of one usually... in which case it changes nothing. So there would be some irony in achieving the same outcome while giving away what little political influence we do still have.

    On the other hand there are some very real advantages to that position - the EEA is not a full customs union and so we would be free to negotiate with other countries outside the EU; and the EEA is not party to the Common Agriculture and Common Fisheries Policies (one of the things I dislike most about the EU, for what it's worth). For those who it bothers, it also doesn't cover justice and home affairs.

    Aside from restricting free movement, that seems to cover what I think the majority of people on both sides would probably accept.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 14836
    ICBM said:

    Correct, but it in no way means that we *can't* be a member of the EFTA and the EEA. That question was not asked. It's entirely possible - and I hope happens - that we leave the EU and rejoin the EFTA. That will fulfil the result of the referendum - leaving the EU - but deliver what is probably the best possible outcome in economic terms.


    EFTA itself might be a free-trade agreement, but all the members are either EEA members or have a bilateral EU agreement, making them effectively EU members without voting rights. Norway will block it anyway. The UK is too large and would dominate.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    edited December 2017
    Fretwired said:

    EFTA itself might be a free-trade agreement, but all the members are either EEA members or have a bilateral EU agreement, making them effectively EU members without voting rights.
    Correct, but so what? As above, although we do currently have voting rights it doesn't generally seem to do us a lot of good - we usually either vote with the other big players anyway, or get overwhelmingly outvoted.

    Being outside the CAP/CFP would be an advantage worth that price anyway, in my opinion. It's one of the single worst aspects of being in the EU. The ability to make other trade deals outside the EU is also something that Brexiteers seem to think is important, but that then becomes possible as well.

    Fretwired said:

    Norway will block it anyway. The UK is too large and would dominate.
    Not true. There is considerable debate about it - some Norwegian politicians don't like it, others have said they would welcome it.

    It also looks like it may be put forward as a temporary measure, to effectively extend the period of negotiation beyond the two years. The question would then be, how long for? If the benefits outweigh the disadvantages then clearly the answer should be 'indefinitely'.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 1907
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 14836
    Not true. There is considerable debate about it - some Norwegian politicians don't like it, others have said they would welcome it.

    It also looks like it may be put forward as a temporary measure, to effectively extend the period of negotiation beyond the two years. The question would then be, how long for? If the benefits outweigh the disadvantages then clearly the answer should be 'indefinitely'.
    Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg is against it - when the UK leaves the EU there's going to be an almighty punch-up with Norway over fishing rights and mineral rights in the North Sea.

    Contrary to what is sometimes said, the UK could not « remain » a member State of the EEA after Brexit, because it will automatically cease to be an EEA member when leaving the EU. Neither the EU, nor its current 28 member States, are members of EFTA. After Brexit, the UK, not being a member of EFTA, and not anymore an EU member, could not be an EEA member and could not be a candidate to become one.

    What would be the consequences for the UK to become an EEA member?

    BY BECOMING A MEMBER OF THE EEA ON THE BASIS OF ITS CURRENT RULES, THE UK WOULD HAVE TO ACCEPT:

    1) As legally binding in its national law the transposition of all EU directives and regulations for the internal market, without participating in their decision « making » but only on « shaping » them (art 99 and 102-104 EEA).

    2) The four freedoms, including the free movement of persons (art 1 and 28 EEA). This would permit the UK to fully participate in the EU single market, with the current exceptions (agriculture and fisheries), while not being part of the EU Customs Union, being thus able to conclude its own bilateral trade agreements.

    3) A strict application of EU law once it would have been incorporated in EEA law and in its national law (art 104 and 108 EEA).

    4) The EEA rule according to which all decisions to be taken by the EEA Council or by the EEA Joint Committee need a common agreement of the EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and thus the UK). Each of those States is able to refuse a proposed decision and, for example, to prevent the others to follow quickly EU legislation (art 90(1) and 93 EEA).

    5) An indirect but substantive participation in the EU budget (art 115-117 EEA).

    6) The surveillance rôle of the independent EEA Authority (one member per EEA member State), comparable to the rôle played by the Commission vis-à-vis the member States in the EU (art 108 and 109 EEA, art 5 and 6 EFTA Agreement).

    7) The interpretation of applicable texts and the judicial control to be insured by the independent EFTA Court (one member per EEA member State), which is the pendant to the EU Court of Justice (art 31-41 EFTA Agreement), must follow its past case law and pay due account of the principles it lays down (art 3 EFTA Agreement). According to article 33 of the EFTA Agreement, « The EFTA States concerned shall take the necessary measures to comply with the judgments of the EFTA Court ».

    8) The necessary homogeneity of the internal market within the Area, which comprises the 28 EU Members and the three EEA EFTA members, which implies unavoidably that the interpretation of identical texts cannot be different than the interpretation given by the EUCJ in its case-law (art 6 and 105-112 EEA, especially 107 and 111(3), art 2 and 3 EFTA Agreement).  

    But the big killer is EU funding. The EEA EFTA States fund their participation in EU programmes and agencies by an amount corresponding to the relative size of their GDP compared to the GDP of the whole EEA (proportionality factor), hence on equal footing with EU member States. The UK would therefore pay pretty much what it pays at the moment - I can't see voters putting up with that - and won't even get financial services passporting rights.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 14836
    Nitefly said:
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
    Yes. The UK is already building fisheries protection vessels as is Norway and probably Iceland.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 1907
    Fretwired said:
    Nitefly said:
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
    Yes. The UK is already building fisheries protection vessels as is Norway and probably Iceland.
    Oh wow, I hope we ordered them via the proper EU tendering processes!

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    Fretwired said:
    Nitefly said:
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
    Yes. The UK is already building fisheries protection vessels as is Norway and probably Iceland.
    It’s a significantly better use of the Royal Navy’s resources than Trident submarines or white elephants - sorry, aircraft carriers - at least...
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 483
    ICBM said:
    Fretwired said:
    Nitefly said:
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
    Yes. The UK is already building fisheries protection vessels as is Norway and probably Iceland.
    It’s a significantly better use of the Royal Navy’s resources than Trident submarines or white elephants - sorry, aircraft carriers - at least...
    I’m intrigued by this. Are we saying that the UK government is actively preparing to police our fishing waters ? Whilst fishing has been an important industry in the past, surely those days are long gone as we have allowed the fleet numbers and ports to dwindle to the point of being a “cottage industry” ? I find it hard to believe that we’d now spend significant money to protect and grow fishing. Procuring a fleet of boats / ships to police our waters for other (security) reasons - I can understand that. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 14836
    exocet said:
    ICBM said:
    Fretwired said:
    Nitefly said:
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
    Yes. The UK is already building fisheries protection vessels as is Norway and probably Iceland.
    It’s a significantly better use of the Royal Navy’s resources than Trident submarines or white elephants - sorry, aircraft carriers - at least...
    I’m intrigued by this. Are we saying that the UK government is actively preparing to police our fishing waters ? Whilst fishing has been an important industry in the past, surely those days are long gone as we have allowed the fleet numbers and ports to dwindle to the point of being a “cottage industry” ? I find it hard to believe that we’d now spend significant money to protect and grow fishing. Procuring a fleet of boats / ships to police our waters for other (security) reasons - I can understand that. 
    The UK has always had fishery protection vessels. The new ships have more capability, are more heavily armed and carry an armed helicopter.  The biggest punch up will be with the Spanish fleets and their factor ships.

    UK waters are rich in fish. I dare say, knowing how the Tories work, that foreign ships can fish for a price and I'm sure that the big supermarkets will get their own ships out fishing. They've bought farms and have secretly been buying up farm land and developing new green house tech for all year round veg.

    UK trawlers are pretty much banned from UK waters under EU rules that favour the big Spanish factor ships so I'm sure some of them, especially in Scotland, will welcome Brexit.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 483
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    ICBM said:
    Fretwired said:
    Nitefly said:
    Ooh - out of the CFP - are we going to have a rerun of the Cod Wars?   :3
    Yes. The UK is already building fisheries protection vessels as is Norway and probably Iceland.
    It’s a significantly better use of the Royal Navy’s resources than Trident submarines or white elephants - sorry, aircraft carriers - at least...
    I’m intrigued by this. Are we saying that the UK government is actively preparing to police our fishing waters ? Whilst fishing has been an important industry in the past, surely those days are long gone as we have allowed the fleet numbers and ports to dwindle to the point of being a “cottage industry” ? I find it hard to believe that we’d now spend significant money to protect and grow fishing. Procuring a fleet of boats / ships to police our waters for other (security) reasons - I can understand that. 

    UK waters are rich in fish. I dare say, knowing how the Tories work, that foreign ships can fish for a price and I'm sure that the big supermarkets will get their own ships out fishing. They've bought farms and have secretly been buying up farm land and developing new green house tech for all year round veg.


    Policing the waters to protect / enforce a commercial agreement with a foreign country...yes, I can see that happening.
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  • Michael Gove has already made some possibly "spurious" claims about his father's fishing business going to the wall because of EU fishing policies, which would indicate he is laying the ground work and gearing up for a bit of muscle flexing in the North Sea once the EU deal is done.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30248
    It might also be a good idea to plan for more ships to supply Gibraltar, since if they get their fishing fleet blocked from UK waters the Spanish will very likely retaliate and close the waters around it, as well as a hard land border if they can.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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